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Old 12-04-2016, 13:02   #31
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by waterman46 View Post
I assume mounting reefing winch on mast was just an inadvertent error . The reefing winch and its cleat is always mounted on the starboard side of the boom. If it was mounted on the mast, the reefing line tension would change depending on how the boom was trimmed. Mount on starboard side because then your most convenient tack for reefing will be the starboard tack. This will least technically, give you right of way over port tack sailboats while reefing.

I have always had and liked slab reefing on my boats, but currently my biggest problem is tying off the excess at the foot. We have a big center cockpit enclosure which makes it impossible to reach a couple of the ties near the center of the boom while closehauled. I can let boom out a bit to where its over my head standing on side deck, but boom is then so high over my head, its dangerous to let go with both hands to tie off the reef lines. The cure is a smaller boat.
Things vary on every boat. Halyard location can dictate reefing winch location as you have to manage both "strings" whilst reefing. On our schooner, the foremast carries the halyards (2 for the gaff foresail) on the starboard side and the reefing winch is a on the bottom (yup, upside down on the bottom) of the boom. Only 1 reef always rigged in that sail, btw. It's the deeper 2nd reef. The first one remains unrigged. We've only once reefed that sail--it's either all the way up, or down. The reef line is tied to the cringle since we know we're not likely to use that reef and like not having the extra line in place.

On the (aft) mainmast, the main halyard is run to the port side and the 2nd reef (we don't even have the first reef rigged) is run to a boom-mounted winch on the port side. This winch is actually shared by the outhaul and the 2nd reef line. The unrigged first reef shares a winch with the topping lift which is on the starboard side of the main boom.

About reefing points--one summer we sailed for over 2 months with the 2nd reef in place on the mainsail when it was hoisted. It was just a very windy season. We secured the sail with the reefing points during that time. We also placed leather around the line as it passed through the cringle and made sure the sail wasn't pinched in some way that would create chafe. Normally we just let the reefed sail sit in the lazy jacks (if they're rigged) or more likely have a flap of sail hanging down next to the boom--because normally we expect to either fully drop the sail if conditions worsen or to have the sail back up fully soon. On a multi-masted boat with similarly sized main/mizzen (ketch) or similarly sized foresail/mainsail (schooner) one might find an entire sail dropped rather than a deep reef taken--so it's a little different than with a cutter or sloop.

Our staysail has a cringle and cheeckblock for reefing but we've not ever reefed the staysail and it remains without a reefing line rigged.

The proper angle to the cheek block is important and we had to relocate our cheek blocks when we changed our mainsail as the reefing cringle locations had moved with the new sail.
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Old 12-04-2016, 13:09   #32
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by basssears View Post
OK, I see what you're saying (and with a boat name like Pythagoras I better listen when we talk about angles!).

What I really want to avoid is having to do a bunch at the aft end of the boom when reefing as I don't like leaning out / reaching out like that, I'm really hoping to do most of my work from the mast / forward end of the boom.
Ha! I'm not a mathematician, but I play one on TV. Of course you will not be out on the boom when reefing. The lines are led to cleats near the gooseneck, so you can cleat off the tack and clew at the same time. The other advantage of running the line through the cringle is that it is less likely to rip out of your hand when the main is whipping around.
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Old 12-04-2016, 13:23   #33
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It is confusing. My earlier/smaller boats used a cheek block for each reef. I would tie the line to the support on the cheek block, go under the boom and up thru the cringle, then back down to the sheave and forward. In effect this was a 2 part, but 45 degree system.
My later and bigger boats I learned and liked the "tie the dead end around the boom" approach. Thus no longer a total 45 degree system.
I cant really I say I saw much difference in the effect though. My gut says any "down" effect, or "aft" effect of the legs of the line balances out the same as a 45 degree system. Been a while though.
Hmmm, let me see if I can muddle this up some more. Let me put it this way, both the single line pulling 45 and the two anchor points set-up will result in a pulling angle of 45. But once set, if you try to lift up or pull down on the single line, it will move, at least a little. Anchored down and out, it won't. See? I think that proves I'm no mathematician! (PO named the boat, he was an engineer) Now so what if it moves? there is a minor effect on main shape, but chafe is the bigger concern I'd say.
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Old 12-04-2016, 16:08   #34
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

One point that no one has mention is the difference in loads on the various components between:

1. A line secured to the cringle.
v
2. A line secured to the boom, run up to the cringle and back to the boom

With 2., the line and block loads are halved.
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Old 12-04-2016, 16:15   #35
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
One point that no one has mention is the difference in loads on the various components between:

1. A line secured to the cringle.
v
2. A line secured to the boom, run up to the cringle and back to the boom

With 2., the line and block loads are halved.
Yep. Was mentioned earlier.
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Old 12-04-2016, 16:32   #36
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by basssears View Post
OK, had to go visual on this because I need to see it in my head... I am two weeks away from setting up slab reefing on our Gulf 32 so want to be sure I get this right.

It sounds like the OP's question related to whether you run a line from the boom up through the leech cringle and back down to the boom, or you just run a line from the boom up and secure it to the leech cringle.

I was planning on doing the latter, as I have done the same thing on a previous (albeit) smaller boat. On the smaller boat I just used a big stopper knot through the cringle, this time I plan on just a simple bowline. It seems to me you get no mechanical advantage by going up through cringle and back down, that is only a 2:1 with loads of friction in it, so it's essentially just a change of direction at best. One of the reasons I'm not doing single line reefing this time is the whole thing just seems to have so much friction on it it's not very effective.

After the OP's original post, most of the replies (including the good video, thanks) seem to be dealing with the angle of the pull, not whether you run TO the leech cringle or THROUGH the leech cringle back to the mast.

I believe (but seriously, about to do this, don't want to do it wrong, please prove me wrong) that that can be taken care of with correct mounting of the cheek blocks so when the appropriate leech cringle is down at the boom the reef line is pulling the cringle at about a 45 degree angle... DOWN to the boom and BACK toward the aft end of the boom, to provide appropriate foot tension.

I guess I could see an issue where just tying off to the cringle you end up pulling your sail to one side of the boom slightly, which could cause problems long term, but I think if I were going to have a reef in for days (which I won't any time soon) I would be able to secure it a little better with some spare line.

Anyway, attached is schematic for my plan for the rear lines for our Gulf 32 (luff reef points will go onto the reef hook, not my favorite but what we'll use for now)... there's nothing on the boom right now, and no reefing system at all, so I do get to do this from scratch meaning I hope I can mount the cheek blocks appropriately.

-- Bass

I would want more horizontal tension than you could get easily. If the sail is not flat you don't get the sail shape required for wind. I have always ran clew line to a winch.


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Old 12-04-2016, 16:46   #37
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
One point that no one has mention is the difference in loads on the various components between:

1. A line secured to the cringle.
v
2. A line secured to the boom, run up to the cringle and back to the boom

With 2., the line and block loads are halved.
There's that, plus if there's only one line, won't the cringle be pulled sideways? Not good for the sail or the cringle (grommet, whatever you call it).
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Old 12-04-2016, 17:29   #38
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Well.... that's no different than any normal reef setup really right? when the sail is up/unreefed you still have two lines dangling around. The OP was trying to avoid that.
No it is different.

Next time you go sailing, pour a large drink-- to liberate the mind and remove preconceived opinions. Good.... Now look at the clew. It has a continuous arc of stress that goes from the boom to the leech.

Okay, now let's set a reef. The reefed clew will have the same forces exerted upon it. To get a nice sail shape, the reefed clew must be pulled aft and restrained to the boom. Are there other ways to do it? Yes.

Do I have the line hanging when she is unreefed? Yes. But when I reef she is reefed right, with a good turn of speed. My experience is that when it is rough enough to reef, it is not the time to be wrestling with a boom, flapping sail and trying to rig the reefing clew. YMMV
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Old 14-04-2016, 04:23   #39
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
On my yacht, the reefing lines exit the boom at the end. If they were made fast to the reef cringles, they would have a wrong angle when reefing the sail: there is much more tension in the leech than in the foot of the sail.

I would not do further business with this rigger: he seems incompetent to me.

Alain
Plus 1 for this - There needs to be a force acting from the Clew directly down to the boom.
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Old 14-04-2016, 05:11   #40
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by quill View Post
Seems like direct attachment reduces line aloft but you might need some line (6 feet or so) to lash the excess sailcloth after reefing. So what have you gained. (I need an I hate emoticons emoticon)
Attached !

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Originally Posted by Three Sisters View Post
An grommet or eye sewn into the leech and luff at reef points...


Nautical Dictionary, Glossary and Terms directory: Search Results

The whole function appears to maintain sail shape when reefing = very important !! ??

We're learning.

You guys are so patient !
We all are still learning... Anybody who says different I probably wouldn't sail with !

Besides... we like your face cringle...
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Old 14-04-2016, 19:44   #41
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

Our first boat was delivered with "single part" reefs attached directly to the reef points. Furthermore, the reef lines were wire rope. The two lines, for the tack and clew respectively, were connected together with a nicropress sleeve near the gooseneck with sail at full hoist. Therefore, this attachment point had to be hauled through any sheave turning point.

The clew lines (two reefs total) led through sheaves whose positions were adjustable along tracks on either side of the boom.

This all worked well, but it was important that: 1, the clew blocks were in the right spot on the boom, and 2, the two lines are the right length relative to each other past the nicropress
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Old 15-04-2016, 09:04   #42
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

OK, I see what people are saying about having the line doubled through the cringle (i.e. boom up to cringle then back down to cheek block then forward to cleat/winch as needed).

Here's my complicating factor, that I just realized... my sail has bolt rope on the foot and it lives in a slot in my mast... so there's no way to rig a line around the boom, unless I only do it when the sail is reefed.

I'm really trying to avoid having to set up a reefing system every time I want to reef... I realize I could simply use two small sections of line and when I go to reef, use one piece of line to tie the clew down to the boom and another to tie it back to the aft end of the boom, but I envision this all when the wind is piping up and the sail is flapping and the admiral is stressing...

... so I really want to have something in place to make it quick and easy, but there's not a way I see with the way the foot of my main lives in the boom to make that happen with a permanent line around the boom.

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Old 15-04-2016, 10:45   #43
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by basssears View Post
OK, I see what people are saying about having the line doubled through the cringle (i.e. boom up to cringle then back down to cheek block then forward to cleat/winch as needed).

Here's my complicating factor, that I just realized... my sail has bolt rope on the foot and it lives in a slot in my mast... so there's no way to rig a line around the boom, unless I only do it when the sail is reefed.

I'm really trying to avoid having to set up a reefing system every time I want to reef... I realize I could simply use two small sections of line and when I go to reef, use one piece of line to tie the clew down to the boom and another to tie it back to the aft end of the boom, but I envision this all when the wind is piping up and the sail is flapping and the admiral is stressing...

... so I really want to have something in place to make it quick and easy, but there's not a way I see with the way the foot of my main lives in the boom to make that happen with a permanent line around the boom.

OK. Not seeing this...Um...don't see how that's really any different than another boom with a sail installed. I'm missing it. Can you not put a padeye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other side at the correct location for the correct pull from the reefing clew? Once that is done, you'll secure a line to the padeye it goes up and through the reefing clew, down to the cheek block and runs forward along the boom (through a couple little eyes you've put on your boom perhaps) to a place where you've got a winch or just a cleat... what am I not understanding about your boom and sail. What I described is pretty ordinary and having a sail bolt rope in-boom doesn't impact it. If you cannot drill or otherwise attach something to your boom, yeah, that's more of a problem but even that's not an impasse.
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Old 15-04-2016, 11:00   #44
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
OK. Not seeing this...Um...don't see how that's really any different than another boom with a sail installed. I'm missing it. Can you not put a padeye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other side at the correct location for the correct pull from the reefing clew? Once that is done, you'll secure a line to the padeye it goes up and through the reefing clew, down to the cheek block and runs forward along the boom (through a couple little eyes you've put on your boom perhaps) to a place where you've got a winch or just a cleat... what am I not understanding about your boom and sail. What I described is pretty ordinary and having a sail bolt rope in-boom doesn't impact it. If you cannot drill or otherwise attach something to your boom, yeah, that's more of a problem but even that's not an impasse.
OK, yes, what you're saying makes sense... others (including the video) were advocating just a line around the mast instead of using the padeye... I guess a little more drilling and tapping and I will go the padeye route.

Thanks.

-- Bass
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Old 15-04-2016, 12:59   #45
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Re: Attaching reefing line directly to cringle cuts line aloft

There are a couple ways to solve this, but one is to attach the reef line to the aft end of the boom and run it up through the cringle and down to the cheek block on the boom below the cringle and then forward. I am not such a fan of that because my head always seems to find the cheek block and hit it. But it is one way. Another is to have a sailmaker put a cringle in the foot below the reef point to take the line around the boom. Never seen that, but I can imagine it.
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