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Old 11-06-2018, 10:24   #46
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

I am very glad everyone is safe. Boats and items are replaceable, people are not. We just returned from the southern Bahamas/Exumas after well over a month there. I believe we were in the same places, and may have crossed paths. I can safely bet i speak for many that the questions we ask here are not intended by most to be mean or inconsiderate, but i for one look at every report as what would i have done to protect my family and boat. If someone only gains one item or tidbit that keeps them safe then it is worth all the trolls and heckling they care to dish out. I for one looks forward to whatever thoughts you care to share here.
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Old 11-06-2018, 10:35   #47
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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I thought catamarans did not sink?
Strange someone would think cats do not sink. They are subject to way more stresses than monos. One does have to be a bit compulsive about maintenance.
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Old 11-06-2018, 10:36   #48
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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I'm glad the people survived.

I'm sorry they ventured offshore with no experience, by their own description.

I blame the rise of inexperienced boaters getting into trouble on two things:

1. Cultural aspects and the Disneyfication of everything and the glorification of "adventure", i.e. risk-taking.

2. The advent of cheap satellite navigation. Honestly, without a GPS, wouldn't most of these folks stick with an RV??

Call me cynical, but I learned to navigate the old fashioned way in the 60's with a compass, log, and clock, and have crossed multiple oceans with a sextant and clock and a WWV shortwave receiver.

These are genuine skills which require at least a little bit of work to acquire - not that much honestly. Navigating with these skills requires caution and common sense.

People trust GPS and chart plotters implicitly, and forget they are aids to navigation, not infallible navigation itself. I love GPS and radar and all the rest - they are terrific navigation aids, and I'd prefer not to sail without them.

The GMDSS system is amazing. When I first went offshore in the 70's it didn't exist, and rescue from trouble was pretty low probability, especially off the beaten path. Now it's pretty high probability, even in remote areas.

Every mariner should should know and follow the COLREGS, which in rule 2a implicitly includes awareness of the GMDSS system as the ordinary practice of seamen.

Don't you owe that to yourself and those with you on the boat? It's not Disney land out there, s**t happens.

Sorry for the rant.
None of your points were relevant to the situation encountered by the family involved in the sinking. They took to sea for the same reasons everyone does. They encountered a mechanical failure that caused the loss of the boat.

You learned to navigate with the tools available to you based on the technology of that time. The same could be said of anyone and everyone.

When someone posts in such a manner in their third post, one can only assume you are a troll.
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Old 11-06-2018, 12:01   #49
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

In principle All merchant vessels maintain a listening watch on VHF 16. This is a requirement from most administrations. A Mayday will be responded to. “Ship on my starboard side” calls are not guaranteed a response. 2182 is no longer monitored. HF/MF Dsc is often not monitored, due to many falls alarms, in spite of regulations.

The Gmdss system was outdated already when it was introduced and things have not gotten better. People in distress want to talk to someone, not push a button in the hope something will happen.

Iridium phones might be a good compliment to a VHF for distress communication. Iridium has just gotten approval for this also.
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Old 11-06-2018, 12:39   #50
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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None of your points were relevant to the situation encountered by the family involved in the sinking. They took to sea for the same reasons everyone does. They encountered a mechanical failure that caused the loss of the boat.

You learned to navigate with the tools available to you based on the technology of that time. The same could be said of anyone and everyone.

When someone posts in such a manner in their third post, one can only assume you are a troll.
Whoe, wait a minute or two. Troll or not, he had good items folks need to be always refreshed about. Second, if you want to get really traditional, the captain should always go down with their ship like captain Smith did.
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Old 11-06-2018, 12:41   #51
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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In principle All merchant vessels maintain a listening watch on VHF 16. This is a requirement from most administrations. A Mayday will be responded to. “Ship on my starboard side” calls are not guaranteed a response. 2182 is no longer monitored. HF/MF Dsc is often not monitored, due to many falls alarms, in spite of regulations.

The Gmdss system was outdated already when it was introduced and things have not gotten better. People in distress want to talk to someone, not push a button in the hope something will happen.

Iridium phones might be a good compliment to a VHF for distress communication. Iridium has just gotten approval for this also.
Even better is a ham license/set preset to monitored frequencies. Hams can respond fast to emergencies almost anywhere on the planet.
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:04   #52
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

I really wish I had it in me to post and exhaustive start to finish account of what happened but at this point I do not...maybe down the road.

Here is one tiny bit of advise I would never have considered until that night...

Keep your hull clean. Luckily our hull was almost completely free of barnacles and slime.. because of it we were able to hang on as waves repeatedly beat us into and off of the hull. If we had not scraped the barnacles recently I am sure my daughter would have so bloody and in pain she would have been screaming and crying. Instead she just ended up with some scrapes from the prop and never complained a bit.

Obviously numerous other safety nets should be in place first to keep it from getting to the point of hanging out on the bottom of ones boat in 10 foot seas at night 20 miles off of a remote coast.


Also...This as not a thruhull/seacock issue as best I could tell...I checked the one around the area where water was coming in and it clearly was coming thru a separation in the fiberglass.

No worries about offending here...I am a big boy and know what was in my control, what was not and working on how I would do things different next time. I am very comfortable with where I chose to take my family. Much much less so with the safety measure I had in place.

Having ditch bag makes sooo much sense until you have a choice of saving your five year old daughter or you passport...sure took me a looong time to work out that one....😉
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:08   #53
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Martin,
As has already been pointed out, VHF Voice monitoring is different in different areas...and many vessels on the high seas do not do so...but their GMDSS consoles (if powered on) are automatically monitoring...

And, while the GMDSS does seem to be a "horse, built by a committee", and could use some updating (they are working on it), you do realize that the Iridium satellite network, and Iridium handheld sat phones pre-date MF/HF-DSC!! (and nobody is throwing them overboard, 'cuz they're out-dated)

And, goodness more than 10 years ago, we (the sailing / cruising community) have been through this "too many false alarms...few people are responding now" BS...
Yes, when first implemented there were false alarms, mostly caused by the 15-years ago fixed "auto-Distress-relay"....


And, if you inquire to both current bridge crews (at least the ones based from the US) and to the relevant authorities (such as USCG), you'll find that the GMDSS is alive and well, and IS being used worldwide....

If you choose to not avail yourself of a 406mhz EPIRB, nor NAVTEX, nor a VHF-DSC radio, nor a MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radio, nor a SART, etc....then that is of course your choice....and I will not dissuade you...

But, to make blanket statements that implies that DSC is a waste, because 15 - 20 years ago there were false alarms and therefore nobody uses it anymore....well, in my opinion, that's not very nice to your fellow sailors...
Especially, since links to sites with current alert and rescue statistics have been provided for all to read for themselves...

Further, you do realize that the DSC system is a "CALLING" / "ALERTING" system, and then traffic IS carried out by two-way radio (VHF or MF/HF), FM or SSB Voice (or SITOR) but the other guy (SOLAS vessel or shore station) needs to be "called" / "alerted" that you're there, and you need to speak to them....

This is how the DSC functions work....
Yes, your radio does stand by for a DSC response (ACK), but also stands by on the appropriate VOICE channel (whether VHF or MF/HF), all simultaneously...and all automatically, without you needing to "tune" to a specific channel, etc...
And, you can yell "Mayday" right there on that Voice channel, all the while the radio is also standing-by and listening for its DSC ACK (with its DSC receiver on the DSC channel), at the same time, without interfering with each other...

That IS what the DSC system is designed to do....and that's one reason why it works so well....no "trained" radio personnel are needed, and nobody needs to standby and watch a screen for a response...

Martin, it appears that it may have been quite a while since your GMDSS course?? Perhaps, you're remembering things incorrectly??
If you desire a polish-up on your skills, having a look at even the videos linked too above will help.



I do hope this discussion doesn't devolve into an argument, because all I was doing was responding to a query as to why some (myself included) haven't had much luck hailing vessels on Ch. 16 in the past dozen years or so...


Fair winds..

John

P.S. I do know that as of this spring (April 2018) Iridium was awaiting IMO / GMDSS certification of their fixed sat comm terminals (Iridium Pilot), but haven't heard it was approved as of yet (thought it was expect next year?)
But, fyi to all, this was NOT their handheld sat phones!!
Please lets cut off this myth quickly!!
We can disagree on who might have their VHF radio's volume turned down, etc., but please let's not spread myths...
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:14   #54
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Steve,
We are all very happy that you are all safe!!
Thank God!!!

And, THANK YOU for updating us!
But, no worries here....I'm sure you have much more pressing things to do than post here!

Good luck and Fair winds...
(I really mean that!!)

John
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:42   #55
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

wyb-
When it comes to vessels and radios...The rules are often meaningless. Heck, even on recreational sailboats in coastal waters here in the US. We're not required to have a VHF, but in theory (those rules) if we have it, we're supposed to be monitoring it, right? Yeah, not quite. The radio is usually down in the cabin, and you have to crank it up and listen to jibberjabber all day instead of having a peaceful sail, so who monitors it? And of course for a slow sailboat,restricted by keel depth, there's only so much "aid" you can render anyway, so being deaf while there are better responders around isn't entirely nuts.

Commercial vessels? Eh, you're lucky if they keep a visual watch.

Apparently the captain of that freighter is a true professional, and probably should get one of those honorary merit awards. If you HAVE a radio, wtf, why not leave it turned on (even if the squelch is up a tad) so you CAN monitor for distress? That's a professional, probably going way beyond the minimum standards. Kudos to that man.
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:58   #56
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pirate Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Always have my VHF on when sailing.. if folks jabber on Ch16 I ask them to switch to a different channel.. if they don't I keep hitting the mike button till they do.
I have heard, relayed and responded to Pan Pans and Maydays a few times.. invariably a motor vessel will get there long before I can but until the co-ordinator calls it In as an active recovery I keep heading for the position broadcast.
I just hope there are others as diligent about the safety of fellow sailors who will hopefully come for me should the worst happen.
Sadly from personal experience I also know there are the a§§holes who will not.
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Old 11-06-2018, 15:28   #57
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Always have my VHF on when sailing.. if folks jabber on Ch16 I ask them to switch to a different channel.. if they don't I keep hitting the mike button till they do.
I have heard, relayed and responded to Pan Pans and Maydays a few times.. invariably a motor vessel will get there long before I can but until the co-ordinator calls it In as an active recovery I keep heading for the position broadcast.
I just hope there are others as diligent about the safety of fellow sailors who will hopefully come for me should the worst happen.
Sadly from personal experience I also know there are the a§§holes who will not.

Haven't logged in or commented for a long time for a number of reasons. Just happy that this ended well for the family, What they did and what the responders did ended with them saving their lives and that is what counts. I agree mate ... I will always respond, so if you make that call and we are anywhere that we can respond and get you, we'll be headed your way for sure. My only addition to anyone is: I know its expensive but if you can afford it, get a liferaft and an EPIRB. Those were the two crucial factors in saving us years ago 950Nm from nearest land. We have lived to tell the tale and we are still sailing. We hope that this family won't give up and we will see them back on the water as soon as they can.
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Old 11-06-2018, 16:45   #58
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Steve,
Let me thank you for taking the high road.... me, unfortunately, I would have loaded a truck full of tomatos and served a large piece of my mind to the clod.. reportly retired sailor or A$$... you did what many of these armchair wantabes will never do,,, you went out there and did it. Mother Nature and Murphy works against sailors every day. When you can lose a 600 ft freighter and take months to find even a trace of it, with some of the best money can buy equipment, a rational person would live in Nebraska and never look at water... oh wait, dont they have hugh tornados out there this week?

Those of us that actually go and follow our dreams are the truely lucky ones. And by showing our kids the wonders availed to us on sailboats, one even better.

You were out there living your dream. And btw, i believe the Military quit using sextants oh 50 years ago, so the prudent sailor is using current technologies to make his travel safer.

And as far as the aventureland mentality, its a proven fact less than 1/10 of 1% of all the visitors to any park ventures more than 5 feet off of any paved trail. You might get eaten by a mountain lion. Oh wait, that happened in the suburbs of LA recently didn’t it? And the >1% that actually do go beyond the realms of the armchair sailors? They are the ones out experiencing life.

A very good friend of mine lost his boat by a mere 30 seconds of inattention. Many Years of true experience, thousands of miles under his belt, and complacency caused it all. He acknowledged the mistake, and bought another boat, and you guess it, he is back sailing again. Oh and he bought bigger redundant bilge pumps.

So when you make it back here to Key West, not if, look me up. I will gladly buy the first round and a couple of bushels of rotten tomatoes...


Fair winds and drown the stinking rats or trolls...

Stan
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I return those of you that are offended by my opinions now to your cosy armchair, warm food and cold beer... may the dog piss on your leg...



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Quote”
No worries about offending here...I am a big boy and know what was in my control, what was not and working on how I would do things different next time. I am very comfortable with where I chose to take my family. Much much less so with the safety measure I had in place.

Having ditch bag makes sooo much sense until you have a choice of saving your five year old daughter or you passport...sure took me a looong time to work out that one....😉
Endquote”
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Old 11-06-2018, 22:45   #59
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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I thought catamarans did not sink?
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Useless comment that makes you come across as a troll. Stay quiet and learn like the rest of us if you don’t have a positive contribution.

I’m very pleased to hear that the family is OK and am very interested in the first hand information recently posted. Thanks.
I am a very new sailor (I can't even call myself a sailor with a straight face at this point) but while there's a mixed bag of folks on this thread with welcoming information as well as what I'd describe as grumpy, arrogant, know-it-alls, it does seem somewhat safe to want to learn here so...I'd actually like to defend billknny a little bit by asking a question and here's why:

Like I say I'm pretty new. I've taken 6 classes (5 of them on catamarans) and I've gone out without instructor only one time. I've taken ASA 101. 103, 104 then US Sailing Basic Keel, Basic Cruising, Basic Bareboat and Catamaran Live Aboard. I'm trying to "do it right". More than once from more than one of the instructors I had I've been told if things go sideways stay with the boat, don't rush into the dingy or life raft. One instructor who had been sailing for 35+ years, all over the world told me "the only time you should ever leave this catamaran is if it's on fire, because they do not sink". I believe he described a large amount of what I thought of as solid foam pumped into open spaces in each hull. (We were on a couple year old 40' Leopard I believe).

Comment: If you want people to learn this has to be a safe place to ask questions...even if they seem dumb or what I assume fxykty took as trolly and sarcastic, I suspect it wasn't.

Question: I was thinking the exact same thing when I started reading this thread...I thought catamarans didn't sink!, really, that's what I was thinking as I read it. Clearly in this case, that's wrong. Is my thinking only because we were on a new catamaran? Or is it just plan false and though I trust this particular instructors creds and experience, he was just plan wrong in the advice of "stay with the catamaran, it will only sink in very rare cases."
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Old 11-06-2018, 23:31   #60
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Technically a Prout should never sink - they have four floatation tanks of sufficient volume that even if the hulls are full they stay afloat at around the bridge deck level above water. BUT, they are all pretty old right now and when I bought mine (now sold and on to my second) the rear compartments were full of rain water because the tops had delaminated and rain over a couple of years whilst for sale on the dock side had dripped in. One of the front compartments had also developed a leak in the water tight hatch on top of it. Of course I repaired these and then filled them with old plastic soda bottles s that even if holed they would still trap a lot of air.

I make no comment on this case, other than to be glad all survived, but in general there is nothing wrong with newbies taking to the seas IF they learn and read and prepare. Bumfuzzle and La Vagabonde have made this look easy and it can be or it can be deadly. No one needs to know how to use a sextant these days - most coastal sailors never did (I self taught from a book just for fun but with three independent GPS on board I don't even keep detailed charts aboard any more - just one large area chart and two iPads)

However, my advice to any new sailor off cruising is to read every book about what can go wrong, learn and preferably check and fix every system on your boat intimately so you know it inside out. When I left the dock 5 years ago I had one (good) sailing course under my belt and a few hundred miles of practice but I had re-built every inch of that boat and knew ever strange sound or behaviour and knew how to fix anything. Cruising really is FIXING your boat in exotic locations. Learning from others is important too - in over 4 years of anchoring out in all conditions I have never dragged even an inch - because I read every article I could and built a ground tackle system based on the best advice. In really bad weather I knew to head out to sea early - before sand blocked my engine inlets, I knew if I had a stern anchor out that I couldn't retrieve I had to motor against it until the line was tight then cut it so it snapped away rather than tangling my prop. How? Because I read an article by the Lin and Larry Pardy about the Cabo San Lucas storm that beached so many boats and took on board all the advice. So my point is no one has to be an old salt to go sailing around the world but please do be prepared
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