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Old 12-06-2018, 00:01   #61
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

One thing I this made think of was YBW Crash Test Boat series on Youtube (worth a watch even though it could have been done much better) where they take an average cruising mono and subject it to fire, explosion, de-masting, thru-hull failure, and a holed hull.

One of the issues when dealing with a leak was getting access to it. There was cabinetry in the way preventing them from fixing it. They had to start taking it apart. I think in such an instance, especially in boats that have a lot of GRP moulded furniture it would be nice to have a good sized axe on board.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:35   #62
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by mikedefieslife View Post
One of the issues when dealing with a leak was getting access to it. There was cabinetry in the way preventing them from fixing it. They had to start taking it apart. I think in such an instance, especially in boats that have a lot of GRP moulded furniture it would be nice to have a good sized axe on board.
Good point but why not include a cordless power Jigsaw or Saw-zall type tool. Chopping wood, especially marine quality wood could take a long time to clear sufficient work space. But then it also depends on what size boat you have and how much storage space is available.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:53   #63
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Good point but why not include a cordless power Jigsaw or Saw-zall type tool. Chopping wood, especially marine quality wood could take a long time to clear sufficient work space. But then it also depends on what size boat you have and how much storage space is available.
When salt water is gushing in a power tool probably isn't going to work for long though. Good to have for other reasons though, just like an 18v angle grinder.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:51   #64
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

In the case of lost marbles, at some point a previous owner had cut open the watertight bulkheads in the bow to gain more storage. We were aware of that and saw it as bonus to have the extra provisioning room.
Once again, one of many things that was overlooked that caused the boat taking on water to go from a extreme inconvience to almost deadly. The bulkheads or holds in each bow had (something less than watertight) covers and we more often than not had the cover on but in this case only one was on loosely. Even loosely did help though as that was the last bit of the boat to sink. I am sure that if the boat had not been altered, it would have floated for a very long time. I also would imagine that has we not become lax in our replacing of both the covers, it would have continued to float for potentially hours more.
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Old 12-06-2018, 14:47   #65
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Hello Steve ,Jessica and Addi this is James and Wendy from sv Diantre . We met at Indiantown in January and were shocked to hear of your misfortune as well as relieved to hear you are all ok. We never made it too far from the icw but looking forward to some extensive cruising this fall. We were looking forward to catching up with you guys again at some point but realize that may not happen now if your done sailing. Wanted to say best of luck with whatever you decide but don't feel too proud to start a "gofundme" if you have had drastic financial loss . God knows there have been others taking advantage of this source that were of much less integrity and necessity. Hope to see you again ...maybe share another dumpster this time with your shoes on lol.
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Old 12-06-2018, 18:57   #66
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by Bazul View Post
I am a very new sailor (I can't even call myself a sailor with a straight face at this point) but while there's a mixed bag of folks on this thread with welcoming information as well as what I'd describe as grumpy, arrogant, know-it-alls, it does seem somewhat safe to want to learn here so...I'd actually like to defend billknny a little bit by asking a question and here's why:



Like I say I'm pretty new. I've taken 6 classes (5 of them on catamarans) and I've gone out without instructor only one time. I've taken ASA 101. 103, 104 then US Sailing Basic Keel, Basic Cruising, Basic Bareboat and Catamaran Live Aboard. I'm trying to "do it right". More than once from more than one of the instructors I had I've been told if things go sideways stay with the boat, don't rush into the dingy or life raft. One instructor who had been sailing for 35+ years, all over the world told me "the only time you should ever leave this catamaran is if it's on fire, because they do not sink". I believe he described a large amount of what I thought of as solid foam pumped into open spaces in each hull. (We were on a couple year old 40' Leopard I believe).



Comment: If you want people to learn this has to be a safe place to ask questions...even if they seem dumb or what I assume fxykty took as trolly and sarcastic, I suspect it wasn't.



Question: I was thinking the exact same thing when I started reading this thread...I thought catamarans didn't sink!, really, that's what I was thinking as I read it. Clearly in this case, that's wrong. Is my thinking only because we were on a new catamaran? Or is it just plan false and though I trust this particular instructors creds and experience, he was just plan wrong in the advice of "stay with the catamaran, it will only sink in very rare cases."

You provided context for why you think that catamarans donít sink and wonder whether this incident belies that truism. Thatís an enquiring and helpful contribution. Billís contribution was troll-like as it provided no context and was just a mean-spirited shot at catamarans. If it was sincere, I apologise.

As weíve learned in this thread, the catamaran in question was modified such that itís designed flotation compartments were no longer watertight and not providing the flotation required to keep the boat afloat.

In general, because catamarans do not have lead keels for stability, are usually constructed of materials that float (cored fibreglass), and are designed with either watertight compartments or flotation sufficient to keep the boat afloat indefinitely, barring fire or severe structural damage, we can say that catamarans usually donít sink.

It does mean maintaining those watertight and/or flotation compartments to ensure they behave as designed.
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Old 12-06-2018, 20:04   #67
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Over the past few years the anti-cat brigade has posted quite a few pics and anecdotes relative to sinking cats, so we know that there are a significant number that have done so.
There have also been pix of cats that have been holed or swamped, are full of water, and are still floating, albeit a bit below their lines.

My take from this is that if I owned a cat and went offshore, and if I was the sort that carried a liferaft in a mono, I'd carry one on the cat as well. Flotation compartments are great until they are breached, by accident or by inept owners. We've heard several comments about Lagoons whose allegedly watertight engine compartments were far from it, and I suspect this is not that uncommon in other marques. It takes considerable insight and discipline to maintain watertight integrity, merits not always present in yotties.

Foam core construction sure helps, but only few designs actually have enough such to maintain buoyancy after loading with cruising gear, so I doubt if one can count on that to keep a holed boat afloat in most cases, at least for the average condomaran.

So, careful maintenance and load control should be in a cat owners mind when preparing for offshore (or, really any) cruising... just as it should with monos!

Jim
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Old 12-06-2018, 20:20   #68
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by wayne.b View Post
===


There's an atmospheric condition called tropospheric ducting, usually caused by an inversion layer, which can temporarily enable long range VHF communication. That's the most likely explanation for what you observed.


Tropospheric ducting - Amateur-radio-wiki


We used to call it skip. Radio signals bouncing between atmospheric layers
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Old 12-06-2018, 21:16   #69
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by getyourbone View Post
In the case of lost marbles, at some point a previous owner had cut open the watertight bulkheads in the bow to gain more storage. We were aware of that and saw it as bonus to have the extra provisioning room.
Once again, one of many things that was overlooked that caused the boat taking on water to go from a extreme inconvience to almost deadly. The bulkheads or holds in each bow had (something less than watertight) covers and we more often than not had the cover on but in this case only one was on loosely. Even loosely did help though as that was the last bit of the boat to sink. I am sure that if the boat had not been altered, it would have floated for a very long time. I also would imagine that has we not become lax in our replacing of both the covers, it would have continued to float for potentially hours more.
Thanks for the added details.

Very happy everyone got off ok, a catastrophic structural failure is really scary
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Old 13-06-2018, 00:18   #70
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

Question: During a haul out for survey or a bottom job are there any tail tale signs of impending doom that might be noticed? Because that is some pretty scary $hizzle if you ask me.
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Old 13-06-2018, 00:46   #71
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

getyourbone,

Thank you so much for showing up here, and I am sure you will explain more, as circumstances make that possible, and I, too will welcome that. You are not alone, many cruisers care what happen to other cruisers.

A friend of ours lost his boat through over-confidence, and trusting out of date charts, and although the boat had been "costed out", he said it had been deeply emotionally traumatic. It is one of the things the armchair sailors forget: how badly it hurts.

Let me say I am glad you all survived, and I, for one, will welcome any questions if you have them. When someone is just starting out, it is what they don't know they don't know that can cause the worst trouble.

Good luck with finding your sealegs again.

Ann
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Old 13-06-2018, 01:15   #72
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by Bazul View Post
I am a very new sailor (I can't even call myself a sailor with a straight face at this point) but while there's a mixed bag of folks on this thread with welcoming information as well as what I'd describe as grumpy, arrogant, know-it-alls, it does seem somewhat safe to want to learn here so...I'd actually like to defend billknny a little bit by asking a question and here's why:

Like I say I'm pretty new. I've taken 6 classes (5 of them on catamarans) and I've gone out without instructor only one time. I've taken ASA 101. 103, 104 then US Sailing Basic Keel, Basic Cruising, Basic Bareboat and Catamaran Live Aboard. I'm trying to "do it right". More than once from more than one of the instructors I had I've been told if things go sideways stay with the boat, don't rush into the dingy or life raft. One instructor who had been sailing for 35+ years, all over the world told me "the only time you should ever leave this catamaran is if it's on fire, because they do not sink". I believe he described a large amount of what I thought of as solid foam pumped into open spaces in each hull. (We were on a couple year old 40' Leopard I believe).

Comment: If you want people to learn this has to be a safe place to ask questions...even if they seem dumb or what I assume fxykty took as trolly and sarcastic, I suspect it wasn't.

Question: I was thinking the exact same thing when I started reading this thread...I thought catamarans didn't sink!, really, that's what I was thinking as I read it. Clearly in this case, that's wrong. Is my thinking only because we were on a new catamaran? Or is it just plan false and though I trust this particular instructors creds and experience, he was just plan wrong in the advice of "stay with the catamaran, it will only sink in very rare cases."
I don't think Outremers are rated unsinkable.
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Old 13-06-2018, 03:58   #73
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by Bazul View Post
I am a very new sailor (I can't even call myself a sailor with a straight face at this point) but while there's a mixed bag of folks on this thread with welcoming information as well as what I'd describe as grumpy, arrogant, know-it-alls, it does seem somewhat safe to want to learn here
That is the sailing community. Some people are super helpful, a good portion however will happily sit on the back of their boats with a drink in hand and watch fellow boaters perhaps hit an uncharted rock or similar.

The thread in the Prout owners group on this incident is full of condolences, sympathies and useful questions. A cruisersforum thread is typically full of speculation, and judgement. It is what it.
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Old 13-06-2018, 05:45   #74
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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We used to call it skip. Radio signals bouncing between atmospheric layers
We listened in on bored watch on freighters chatting away R-rated for a couple hours when off the coast of Portugal at 3:00 am. Our AIS showed ship positions for 200+ miles to the north and south of us. It was a very strange experience.
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Old 13-06-2018, 05:47   #75
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Re: Any more info on Lost Marbles rescue off Puerto Rico

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...a good portion however will happily sit on the back of their boats with a drink in hand and watch fellow boaters perhaps hit an uncharted rock or similar.
Not true and pretty cynical.
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