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Old 29-07-2013, 09:45   #1
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Another Question of Right of Way

Sometimes a person at the helm needs to look over their shoulder before turning!


www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kQpQURvjJaA
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Old 29-07-2013, 10:07   #2
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

Pretty spectacular smashup. I think there was a previous thread on this.

I think the ship in front didn't actually turn left but had the stern pushed to stbd by the bow wave of the ship overtaking. That vessel was certainly way too close to the one on the right.
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Old 29-07-2013, 12:57   #3
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

The larger vessel is overtaking and give way. The smaller vessel is clearly pushed sideways, but is still somewhat accountable
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Old 29-07-2013, 13:17   #4
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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The larger vessel is overtaking and give way. The smaller vessel is clearly pushed sideways, but is still somewhat accountable
That's how it appears. But the smaller vessel would have had to start turning away from the overtaking vessel a good while back since a turn to the right would move his stern to port putting it even closer to the overtaking vessel.

I just can't understand why the overtaking vessel tried to pass so close. Surely the captain would know the probably consequences. I don't know the exact location but perhaps the larger vessel was restrained by draft and couldn't move over. But in that case he should not have tried to pass.
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Old 29-07-2013, 13:59   #5
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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I just can't understand why the overtaking vessel tried to pass so close. Surely the captain would know the probably consequences. I don't know the exact location but perhaps the larger vessel was restrained by draft and couldn't move over. But in that case he should not have tried to pass.
CBD gives way to overtaken.
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Old 29-07-2013, 17:07   #6
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Quote:
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CBD gives way to overtaken.
Isnt Overtaking vessel still responsible for their actions and their
Wake.
What if the overtaking vessel is not CBD? Not the case here but consider a large mono having to be in the channel being overtaken by a powerboat not cbd?
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Old 29-07-2013, 18:32   #7
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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Isnt Overtaking vessel still responsible for their actions and their
Wake.
What if the overtaking vessel is not CBD? Not the case here but consider a large mono having to be in the channel being overtaken by a powerboat not cbd?
Rule 13 is pretty clear. It does not matter if the overtaking vessel is CBD.

Quote:
Rule 13 - Overtaking Return to the top of the page

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II | 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.


However Rule 9 would not apply in this case.

Harbour regulations can also come into play.
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Old 29-07-2013, 18:54   #8
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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CBD gives way to overtaken.
Yes, that was my point. Even if a vessel is CBD it has no right of way in overtaking another vessel that may or may not be CBD.
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Old 29-07-2013, 19:24   #9
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

A fine example of the low pressure area around ships sterns. The overtaking vessel was too close and got sucked in, causing a PIT maneuver on the stand on vessel. I'm sure some hurried rudder commands did not help.
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Old 29-07-2013, 19:44   #10
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

This is a greatly shortened video. I seem to remember about a four minute version showing guys on the bow of the overtaking ship yelling at the ship being overtaken.

One big pissing match gone wrong.

I really enjoy the 'bridge resource management' manual we got last year, authored by a Pakistani and a Filipino. Just what we need, more of these submariners dictating how to pull off asinine maneuvers like this.
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Old 29-07-2013, 20:34   #11
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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That's how it appears. But the smaller vessel would have had to start turning away from the overtaking vessel a good while back since a turn to the right would move his stern to port putting it even closer to the overtaking vessel.

I just can't understand why the overtaking vessel tried to pass so close. Surely the captain would know the probably consequences. I don't know the exact location but perhaps the larger vessel was restrained by draft and couldn't move over. But in that case he should not have tried to pass.

Someone was passing me, way too close to my starboard side, when his autopilot suddenly went nuts. He turned about 90Ί -- really -- left bottom paint on the stern of my boat! Yelled as he went by that "he had the right of way" and "those girls" can't hold a course (what -- did we BOTH have hands on the wheel?) A good friend who is an outstanding sailor had been at the helm and my friend took over when he climbed onto the cabin -- to photograph the boat that ended up hitting us.

Looking at the pictures the next day revealed -- an empty helm -- yes -- NO ONE at the helm! The "skipper" was sitting next to the cabin in the cockpit, and his wife was below making lunch.

He had, apparently, fallen asleep with his eyes open as he didn't move for a full minute as shown by the pictures. That's why he didn't hear us shouting at him to back off. We were going as fast as we could go, and either pointing up or falling off would have slowed us down. There was nothing we could do.
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Old 31-07-2013, 07:24   #12
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

And yet once again I feel compelled to point out that there is no such thing as "right of way." There is a stand-on vessel, and there is a give-way vessel. But BOTH vessels have equal responsibility to do whatever is required to avoid a collision.
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Old 31-07-2013, 07:47   #13
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

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And yet once again I feel compelled to point out that there is no such thing as "right of way." There is a stand-on vessel, and there is a give-way vessel. But BOTH vessels have equal responsibility to do whatever is required to avoid a collision.
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Hear, hear.

The concept of "right of way" is inapplicable at sea. Being the stand-on vessel has little to do with having right of way on a road, and confusing these things is dangerous. The crucial distinction is that when you have the right of way, on a road, it is more or less entirely the problem of drivers without the right of way to avoid colliding with you, so you can drive -- more or less -- with impunity. This is true even if you are practicing "defensive driving" -- because there actually isn't much you could even do to avoid a car darting out from a side street, if you are driving down a highway at 100km/h. It's totally different at sea -- the stand-on vessel has just as much responsibility to keep a sharp watch and avoid a collision as the give-way vessel. The idea of stand-on and give-way merely describes the order of maneuvering.

Therefore, it is forbidden by the COLREGs to make an unseamanlike sudden turn right under the bows of an overtaking vessel, and it is forbidden by the COLREGS to maneuver willy-nilly without keeping a good watch, including behind you in case you're making a sharp turn.

So in the case mentioned by the OP, there's plenty of blame to go around for both of the bozos helming those vessels.
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Old 31-07-2013, 08:42   #14
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

Well said.

COLREGS is an attempt by lawyers to apply common sense to the "rules of the road" while on a boat.
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Old 31-07-2013, 10:24   #15
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Re: Another Question of Right of Way

The Bulk Cargo Ship (The larger one) was in violation of Rule 6...

Rule 6 -Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions"
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:
By all vessels;
  • (i) the state of visibility
  • the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels
  • the maneuverability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions
According to the news accounts of this collision, the larger ship was not constrained by draft, but had on coming traffic on his port side causing it to come way to close to the vessel he was attempting to pass.

Why or how the larger ship got so close to the smaller ship will be what determines fault in this collision, not the other boat's turn, which was probably due to bow wash from the other vessel.
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