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Old 18-02-2018, 12:30   #526
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Go in slow and monitor your depth log constantly on a rising tide.. preferably without a following sea.. if you touch bottom you can back away.
+1

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Originally Posted by TreblePlink View Post
There should be a better system for communicating inlet local knowledge.
That's my take away from this, too.

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Why?
If you are a local and use the entrance regularly you probably have the knowledge
If you are not a local and don't have the knowledge don't go in until you have it.
So you agree that you need "the knowledge", but you don't agree that there should be better ways to communicate it?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
But seeing #3 on the chart, and the way the open water seems east of it, while the marked channel runs west of it, I would look and that and say "WTF?" and proceed with great unease.

Yes! It pretty good counter example to my earlier point about using charts to know if the charts are bad, actually. In this case it clear that somethings fishy. Of course, inaccuracies wont always be so visible.
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Old 18-02-2018, 12:37   #527
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

https://activecaptain.com can be helpful, within the US anyway.

Not sure how I feel about the whole Garmin takeover, but it comes in useful gunkholing.

I steered clear of St Augustine this year based on the comments from activecaptain, which tend to be pretty alarmist. But without local knowledge, better safe than sorry. Comments are dated, so you can compare with the date on your guidebooks or charts. We went down to Ponce De Leon inlet. Anchored, and checked it out with dinghy first.

When debating coming in at St Augustine, I came across your blog, funjohnson. Thanks for the report. Sorry you guys had so much trouble.
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Old 18-02-2018, 12:50   #528
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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So you agree that you need "the knowledge", but you don't agree that there should be better ways to communicate it?


Try quoting the whole post - read it - report back with your realistic solution.

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Entrances can and do change regularly, often faster than they can be surveyed and notice to mariners issued.
Some places don't get surveyed at all.
Weve sailed areas where the last chart update was in the 1700s
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Old 18-02-2018, 12:50   #529
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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Depth sounder with loud alarm - get one
And forget your schedule, probably the number one cause of boats coming to grief.
And no, in 40 years on the water i have never put any of our big boats in sketchy positions before. Small boats that we can get out and push off yes, but if we can't push it off, no.
We've got a sounder, accurate too. Calibrated by touching the bottom . We cruise in very shallow water, with a sub 4' draft. Sometimes we touch the bottom, it's never a big deal. We get into anchorages very few sailboats can and it's worth it. These are soft groundings in fair weather and protected water.

As for the other incident, sounder would not do much good going six knots under sail with seas behind, it was more important to figure out the marks and make an unfamiliar channel. Nothing happened, my point was simply that it could have. I was relying completely on the marks (and my ability to see them in lousy conditions) and the accuracy of my chartplotter. I'm sure most boaters consider that due diligence, but to me, you're putting all your eggs in one basket.

I think it's hubris to imagine that you'll never find yourself in a compromised position, whether by circumstance or your own decisions.
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Old 18-02-2018, 12:56   #530
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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But seeing #3 on the chart, and the way the open water seems east of it, while the marked channel runs west of it, I would look and that and say "WTF?" and proceed with great unease.
The G"3" is definitely on the wrong side of the channel. I have no first-hand knowledge of this, but my guess is that the CG quite properly moved the marker because of the encroaching shoal, but forgot to move or erase the dotted line marking the channel on the chart.

I also found an older copy of the chart showing G"3" on the correct side of the marked channel. Part of it got changed, part didn't.
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Old 18-02-2018, 12:59   #531
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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We've got a sounder, accurate too. Calibrated by touching the bottom . We cruise in very shallow water, with a sub 4' draft.
And we cruise in shallow water with a 6 ft draft
Sounder is set to 5 ft below that, when it goes off we set it to 3 ft and creep, but only if we know the area and have rising tide.
Chart plotter is set for anything under 6ft is land
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I think it's hubris to imagine that you'll never find yourself in a compromised position, whether by circumstance or your own decisions.
I'll never find myself in a dodgy situation caused by chasing a schedule or by going into areas that I don't know and haven't sounded out in the tender first.
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Old 18-02-2018, 13:12   #532
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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And we cruise in shallow water with a 6 ft draft
Sounder is set to 5 ft below that, when it goes off we set it to 3 ft and creep, but only if we know the area and have rising tide.
Chart plotter is set for anything under 6ft is land

I'll never find myself in a dodgy situation caused by chasing a schedule or by going into areas that I don't know and haven't sounded out in the tender first.

Regarding your first point, that's simply not practical or necessary for our cruising style or our boat: a 6-ton, long keel sailboat on the East Coast of US. If I limited my anchorages/inlets to waters 7' (4'+3') or deeper, I would miss out on large tracts of cruising territory. Also, it's small boat: we can kedge-off, bumper-boat with dinghy, wait for tide or otherwise self-recover. I've never asked for or needed a tow.

On our last passage from Long Key to Cape Sable, we had less than 5' for miles and miles, sailing. Only other sailboats on the same route were catamarans. When we sailed on the Pacific side, we never went aground or came close, 5' would be in the surf! Perhaps our differences are just terrain-driven.

As for your second point, this is clearly an ideological clash in outlook and we won't resolve it, so I'm going to pass on responding.
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Old 18-02-2018, 14:10   #533
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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I assume he's joking and isn't honestly suggesting that you'd use your charts to determine whether or not you can trust your charts.
Well yes, semi joking. Some inlets are marked local knowledge or other warnings on the charts but St John's pass isn't. Note says project depth is 10' which isn't useful at all.

The answer isn't very obvious and requires some looking. There is a warning in the USCG Local Notice to Mariners from Dec. Also the websites below post warnings or copy the wording from the LNM on their online guides.

Bottom line, unless the inlet is a large, controlled inlet like Miami, Jacksonville, Tampa, etc do not enter especially at night or any other marginal situation unless you have local knowledge or you have researched the inlet very carefully and have the latest information from reliable sources. Even then exercise great caution.

The useful information is on Live map

It is reported that as of March 2017 the pass is shoaling in from the north approaching from the Gulf of Mexico. Currently, the G3 buoy marks the shoal. However, it has been reported out of place on occasion in recent weeks. If you need to enter and the G3 buoy's location is questionable here are some instructions. Starting at R4 proceed at about 80 degrees magnetic in the direction of the blue roof building just south of the bridge. Once you are within about 200 yards of the R2 daymark then turn towards the center of the structure. That will take you north of the R2 daymark into the basin on the outside. Call the bridge for an opening 'on demand' on VHF 09

Waterway Guide and Cruisers Net both note the USCG Local Notice to Mariners from Dec.

https://www.waterwayguide.com/explor...&mode=navAlert

https://cruisersnet.net/cruisersnet-...192006095&z=14

All vessels operating with more than a 3ft draft are advised to use extreme caution when transiting inbound and outbound of Johns Pass. Due to an encroaching shoal to the north in the vicinity of Johns Pass Buoy 3 (LLNR 25585.5).
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Old 18-02-2018, 15:07   #534
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

"It is reported that as of March 2017 the pass is shoaling in from the north approaching from the Gulf of Mexico. Currently, the G3 buoy marks the shoal. However, it has been reported out of place on occasion in recent weeks. If you need to enter and the G3 buoy's location is questionable here are some instructions. Starting at R4 proceed at about 80 degrees magnetic in the direction of the blue roof building just south of the bridge. Once you are within about 200 yards of the R2 daymark then turn towards the center of the structure. That will take you north of the R2 daymark into the basin on the outside. Call the bridge for an opening 'on demand' on VHF 09"

----
There are a bunch of obsolete VHF channels that COULD have inexpensive, 1 watt transmitters (could be solar powered) with a repeating message conveying the double-secret "local knowledge" directly to nearby boats when and where they need it. Repeating continuously. In congested areas, it could address several.
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Old 18-02-2018, 15:29   #535
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

Query: Have the coordinates of the actual grounding spot been published here on CF, or anywhere else? I'm not keen to go back over 500+ posts to find out!

Without this knowledge, it's kinda fruitless to discuss charting errors as a cause of the event.

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Old 18-02-2018, 18:07   #536
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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How does one know the difference between an inlet that requires local knowledge, and one that does not?
Well one could read the coastal pilot:

Quote:
(310) Johns Pass about 3 miles north of Blind Pass, between Treasure Island and Sand Key affords passage for small craft from the Gulf to the north part of Boca Ciega Bay. A marked channel leads from the Gulf of Mexico through Johns Pass thence north to the Intracoastal Waterway. The channel is reportedly subject to considerable shoaling between Daybeacon 1 and Buoy 3. Extreme caution and local knowledge of the channel conditions is advised. The entrance to the channel is marked by a light and the channel is marked by lights, buoys and daybeacons. In Johns Pass the flood current sets northeast at an average velocity of 2.0 knots and ebbs southwest at an average velocity of 1.5 knots. (See Tidal Current Tables for daily predictions.)
NOAA loves to give this information away - surprised nobody mentioned it yet: https://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/publ...lot/index.html
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Old 18-02-2018, 20:35   #537
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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Query: Have the coordinates of the actual grounding spot been published here on CF, or anywhere else? I'm not keen to go back over 500+ posts to find out!

Without this knowledge, it's kinda fruitless to discuss charting errors as a cause of the event.

Jim
yeah I have ben waiting for that one too.
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Old 19-02-2018, 04:24   #538
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

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Usually, it is the captains responsibility to contact the bridge, not the other way around.

Not saying the tender couldn't have called them on the radio but not his responsibility and he wouldn't know the sailboats draft.

Yes, quite.

So I would hope that they were both already in communication with each other, given that where they went aground was less than half a mile from the bridge. With an ebb tide in a narrow channel, and with an onshore wind, I wouldn't fancy getting right up tight to the bridge in the dark before trying to sort out an opening.

That's why I assumed they might have got some help from the bridge control - especially since they were struggling with the location of the buoys.

Maybe they hadn't called up - and so if they hadn't gone aground they would 'just' have lost the mast on the bridge a few minutes later...
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Old 19-02-2018, 04:45   #539
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

Local Knowledge: Use a variety of sources:
- Charts: If you see odd things, you need to be careful. Shifting bars are a common issue.
- Guides (paper and electronic): They often will recommend avoiding certain inlets.
- Marinas: If you are reserving a slip, ask.
- Local CG station: They can give you the low down.
- Fellow cruisers

You don't have to use a single source for navigation.
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Old 19-02-2018, 09:16   #540
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Re: Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

In my experience, the old ActiveCaptain was a great resource. I can not set up Garmin’s version on my tablet due to bandwidth limitations and see that as a major loss of a good tool.
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