Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Please can someone help us we have no money is begging IMHO and it is what this pair and others of their ilk are doing.

First world people with first world problems too stupid to have insurance and too lazy to earn the dollars themselves.


I have no issue helping those in genuine need and have done so in the past.
These people are not even close to being in genuine need.

Take a deep breath and calm down, these young people are not ilk or lazy. They are trying to exist in a world where opportunity has been stolen from them by outsourcing and cheap immigrant labor. They are not drug dealers or thieves, they are (want to be) cruisers. More power to them.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"They can be sued but there is nothing to get."
Not quite. Donations to GoFundMe and other sites can probably be attached, so that's all up for seizure. And a lien for 10% of all their earnings, for the next 20 years (10 plus 10 renewed) can be issued.
If either of them makes a cent for the next 20 years, part of it can be seized to satisfy a claim. It may not be worth pursuing, but who's to say what anyone will be doing for the next 20 years.

Judgement proof isn't an official legal term, it's a practical principal.

In theory, everything you say is true. Someone could spend hours and hours chasing them down and attaching and liening and etc....in practice, it's just not going to happen because there is nothing to get.

Keep in mind also, usually there are limits where if you are below some minimal income level or it's your home, it's protected from civil action (details get messy so call a lawyer if you want specifics). So if they quickly transfer the money into a new boat, good chance even the gobegme fund can't be touched.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cyan

young couple down on their luck.

There are Youtube channels that get the same kind of angry statements. Some people complain that people are giving money to others to have a vacation. 'Seems silly do donate for videos you can watch for free anyway. For that matter, there's a great forum for cruisers on the internet. You can use it for free or you can donate if you like it and hope it thrives. You'll get a green badge for your good will. Is that begging too?

"Down on your luck" to me implies you tried to do the right thing and luck just wasn't with you. Given the available info, this had very little to do with luck. To be successful would have required a massive amount of luck in their favor.

As far as the youtube channels,
- Good for them if they are putting them up as an entertainment business and the payment is what you choose to give.
- Where I take issue is when they start spinning it into "poor us" we'll have to stop having fun if you don't give us money...and it basically turns into asking for charity.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

Take a deep breath and calm down, these young people are not ilk or lazy. They are trying to exist in a world where opportunity has been stolen from them by outsourcing and cheap immigrant labor. They are not drug dealers or thieves, they are (want to be) cruisers. More power to them.

How was "oppurtunity stolen from them"? They quit their jobs.

No one is suggesting they have to live the "leave it to beaver" white picket fence lifestyle.

You keep telling people to calm down and let it go...why are you so insistent that it's great that they are being irresponsible is great?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

I far as I know they hurt/damaged nobody except themselves and sought out crowd funding to mitigate the salvage. And if this fact has escaped you, INSURANCE is based on crowd funding.

actually no insurance is not like crowd funding. With insurance every policy holder pays a fee commiserate with the risk of an incident squared.

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by newhaul

actually no insurance is not like crowd funding. With insurance every policy holder pays a fee commiserate with the risk of an incident squared.

Funded by the crowd, a group of people with the same agenda. Crowed sourced.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

I far as I know they hurt/damaged nobody except themselves and sought out crowd funding to mitigate the salvage. And if this fact has escaped you, INSURANCE is based on crowd funding.

Ummm, Tim, there is a significant difference between insurance 'crowd funding" and what these chaps are doing: to access the Insurance crowd funding, you need to put up an ante. as it were ,ahead of time. It's called a premium.

If they had posted the ante, a smallish one just for liabilities, they would not have had to find funding from the crowd to do the salvage... it would have been there for them.

I have the opinion that for folks without assets, sailing without at least liability insurance is foolish and morally corrupt. You can do a lot of damage to others with a 5000 dollar boat!

Jim

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

How was "oppurtunity stolen from them"? They quit their jobs.

No one is suggesting they have to live the "leave it to beaver" white picket fence lifestyle.

You keep telling people to calm down and let it go...why are you so insistent that it's great that they are being irresponsible is great?

-You should read this thread from the beginning so you know what is meant by opportunity stolen. A lifetime of service work is not opportunity.
-"Leave it to Beaver" I guess that only makes sense to you.
-I told one person to calm down, not people. Referring to the young people as stupid, ilk, and lazy is unbecoming. Is English a second language for you?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

"Down on your luck" to me implies you tried to do the right thing and luck just wasn't with you. Given the available info, this had very little to do with luck. To be successful would have required a massive amount of luck in their favor.

Fair enough. They made some dumb mistakes. Immediate need. A couple bucks wouldn't hurt. Enabling?
Homeless drug users are down on their luck, so to speak. Dumb mistakes. They seem to collect a couple blocks from my office. I offer some food. Immediate need. Enabling?

Originally Posted by valhalla360

As far as the youtube channels,
...
- Where I take issue is when they start spinning it into "poor us" we'll have to stop having fun if you don't give us money...and it basically turns into asking for charity.

Which ones did this?
I have never seen this in the channels I watch.
("buy us a beer" seems like a fair, small exchange for my enjoyment. Asking for a beer? not really a charity. No stop to the fun, no matter my donation of $5 or not)

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ummm, Tim, there is a significant difference between insurance 'crowd funding" and what these chaps are doing: to access the Insurance crowd funding, you need to put up an ante. as it were ,ahead of time. It's called a premium.

If they had posted the ante, a smallish one just for liabilities, they would not have had to find funding from the crowd to do the salvage... it would have been there for them.

I have the opinion that for folks without assets, sailing without at least liability insurance is foolish and morally corrupt. You can do a lot of damage to others with a 5000 dollar boat!

Jim

I agree with you in the most part. Its only loosely associated. You must pay a premium to access a service with a group of people with like interests. The rest is just semantics. GFM is supported by a group of people with like interests.
Not having insurance is undesirable. Maybe they couldn't get it, I dont know. I'm not going to crucify these kids because of it. I just end up putting an uninsured motorist policy on my insurance policy. That is what I do with my auto as well. Its all just part of playing the game and hedging my bets. The law does not require operators licenses and insurance for boats, what else can you do?

[double u]

careless people like them are responsible for the steady tightening of regulations, just look at the NZ safety inspection, etc.
the french bureaucrats had their fielddays already decades ago when people to lazy/unintelligent/"carefree" took to the sea with a "devil-may-care" attitude & needed rescuing.
Look where we are now: there is an endless list of equipment that you must have if you want to register your boat, licenses, you name it, you gotta have it. report your departure, permits, regulations (in Italy your seacocks have to have "RINA" on them, I could go on & on)

[alaskaflyfish]

Originally Posted by double u

careless people like them are responsible for the steady tightening of regulations, just look at the NZ safety inspection, etc.
the french bureaucrats had their fielddays already decades ago when people to lazy/unintelligent/"carefree" took to the sea with a "devil-may-care" attitude & needed rescuing.
Look where we are now: there is an endless list of equipment that you must have if you want to register your boat, licenses, you name it, you gotta have it. report your departure, permits, regulations (in Italy your seacocks have to have "RINA" on them, I could go on & on)

On the other hand, the ever increasing regulations is what makes life unaffordable and encourages people to cut corners in trying to achieve a life that is increasingly out of reach.

[double u]

...boats are cheaper & more plentiful than ever. that they "set off" after saving only $10.090 shows a certain attitude...
the regulations do not make it "unaffordable" - the cruising life is more affordable than it was in the eighties! - they are just a major annoyance (& I for one take strong exception to a desksailor/penpusher in a ministery telling me what safety equipment I have to take along!)

[Cap Erict3]

Other cultures, other stations in life, other ways of thinking, many people can’t imagine walking different roads. Don’t remember stories from the generations before. The new normal ain’t new. Nor is looking for someone to blame.

A lot of kids die by doing what kids do. Some walk the line, some dance. Eat, drink and make out with Mary when u can. It makes for fond memories.

[double u]

...there seems to be one common denominator though:
"it is ALWAYS sombody elses fault!"