Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[250224]

Originally Posted by tdoster

Here is what burns me. This couple received over 15K in donations and the damn boat is still a very bad hazard to navigation just under the water now at green marker #3.

Maybe it takes time. Don't think they already have the money in their hands.

Now there came some nasty comments (Fraudsters). But I cannot imagine that they could leave the boat just there without anybody going after them?

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

All good points, but it seems like even in day for a transient coming in for the first time this inlet is quite risky. So who in practice would you hail to get the much needed local info?

1. Navionics Charts get it right. In this case. Since Irma, they are hounding us to upload more soundings, which we are. The pass is pretty dead on right now on the sonar chart. See the clear difference from the govt to the sonar. https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=e...y=eyphDj%60hxN (Select the SonarChart)

This is a clear case that if you follow your chartplotter on standard charts, you will be on the ground.

2. If you pay for Boat US or Sea Tow, you can phone up the operator and they will put you in touch with the local captains who can give you advise.

3. The John's Pass Bridge Tender can't give advise (liability), but right now, he is notifying people that the sunken boat has moved south of the #3.

4. Active Captain. Normally has good advise. The updates on the Shoal movement are a little out of date, but we use this when cruising and anything that gives warning usually has cause. https://activecaptain.com/livemap

5. Hail a fishing boat coming or going and ask for advise. Not a lot of them use AIS around here, but we have followed our share of shrimp and fishing boats in our day.

6. Waterway Guide Online. https://www.waterwayguide.com/explor...&mode=navAlert They do a good job adding the CG Notice to Mariners.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Maybe it takes time. Don't think they already have the money in their hands.



Now there came some nasty comments (Fraudsters). But I cannot imagine that they could leave the boat just there without anybody going after them?

Given the change in their gofundme account from:

1st. This is solely to get the boat out of the water
To now: the first thing we need is a new boat.

I think "Fraudster" is likely warranted.

Thanks tdoster and lodesman for the good info.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Maybe it takes time. Don't think they already have the money in their hands.

Now there came some nasty comments (Fraudsters). But I cannot imagine that they could leave the boat just there without anybody going after them?

It is not easy to clean up a mess left by someone else unless there is a declaration of disaster - clean up after a hurricane.

There is a long drawn out process to try and go after people who abandon boats. We legally can't even go tie a line to it and drag it out of the channel.

Betting pool around here is 50-1 that they never intended to use the money to clean up their mess, only to fund their next round of disasters. It is a mentality you see a lot in this part of the world. No one legit takes off to sail to the Bahamas with $90 in their pocket. It is $175 to check in and out alone, not to mention at least $500 a month minimum to eat (with a dog) there. Chances are they may have made it to the Keys only to become another storm rocket (look how many good boats and people who worked hard all of their lives on a mooring in Boot Key to be taken out in Irma by boats that were left to fend for themselves on 25# Danforth anchors and 30 year old ground tackle).

For a couple who checked out because they didn't like to work, they have to know that it is twice as hard to earn money living on a really small boat at anchor add a dog with food and rowing him in and out a couple of times per day and boat chores, laundry, and (let's assume they are not the typical poop pumpers) care and feeding of the toilet, getting water, etc. - life back on land with a 9-5 and charter a boat once a year is pretty attractive. So, what normally happens in these parts is they head back for family and leave the boat at anchor for the rest of us to worry about, especially in a storm.

Does not matter how well the rest of us prepare, we are no match...

I hope I am wrong and see a salvage crew out some time this week and we have hounded the local media to do a follow up so they don't profit off the misery of others left here to deal with their mess. If they do quickly clean up their mess, I will be the first one to thank them and not only buy them a beer, but then feel OK about helping them with their dream.

Map of Derelict Vessels and the FWC explains the process they have to go through to clean up the mess.


https://public.myfwc.com/LE/ArrestNe...VesselMap.aspx

[250224]

Thanks a lot for the interesting info, tdoster. - I don't have experience with the mentality you described, and I really were very very disappointed if this 50:1 bet would happen this way. Not even thought this to be a real possibility.

[frozenhawaiian]

Originally Posted by tdoster

It is not easy to clean up a mess left by someone else unless there is a declaration of disaster - clean up after a hurricane.

There is a long drawn out process to try and go after people who abandon boats. We legally can't even go tie a line to it and drag it out of the channel.

Betting pool around here is 50-1 that they never intended to use the money to clean up their mess, only to fund their next round of disasters. It is a mentality you see a lot in this part of the world. No one legit takes off to sail to the Bahamas with $90 in their pocket. It is $175 to check in and out alone, not to mention at least $500 a month minimum to eat (with a dog) there. Chances are they may have made it to the Keys only to become another storm rocket (look how many good boats and people who worked hard all of their lives on a mooring in Boot Key to be taken out in Irma by boats that were left to fend for themselves on 25# Danforth anchors and 30 year old ground tackle).

For a couple who checked out because they didn't like to work, they have to know that it is twice as hard to earn money living on a really small boat at anchor add a dog with food and rowing him in and out a couple of times per day and boat chores, laundry, and (let's assume they are not the typical poop pumpers) care and feeding of the toilet, getting water, etc. - life back on land with a 9-5 and charter a boat once a year is pretty attractive. So, what normally happens in these parts is they head back for family and leave the boat at anchor for the rest of us to worry about, especially in a storm.

Does not matter how well the rest of us prepare, we are no match...

I hope I am wrong and see a salvage crew out some time this week and we have hounded the local media to do a follow up so they don't profit off the misery of others left here to deal with their mess. If they do quickly clean up their mess, I will be the first one to thank them and not only buy them a beer, but then feel OK about helping them with their dream.

Map of Derelict Vessels and the FWC explains the process they have to go through to clean up the mess.


https://public.myfwc.com/LE/ArrestNe...VesselMap.aspx

this hits the nail right on the head. I have absolutely zero faith that they will follow through and pay to remove the wreck. they're probably already shopping for the next boat. dollars to donuts they'll skip town.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Given the change in their gofundme account from:

1st. This is solely to get the boat out of the water
To now: the first thing we need is a new boat.

I think "Fraudster" is likely warranted.

Thanks tdoster and lodesman for the good info.

FWIW, I've reported the change to GoFundMe. Pointing out that many thousands of dollars were raised initially to pay for the salvage costs. Others may like to do the same.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by StuM

FWIW, I've reported the change to GoFundMe. Pointing out that many thousands of dollars were raised initially to pay for the salvage costs. Others may like to do the same.

Thanks. I have actually done the same. I agree that others should report to gofundme as well.

[StuM]

For those here who donated on the basis that it wqs to pay for salvage. This from GoFundMe in response to my complaint:

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Our Trust & Safety team will be investigating the page and taking appropriate action. If you donated to this campaign or are the intended recipient of the money raised, please fill out the appropriate GoFundMe Guarantee claim form. If you know any donors or the intended recipient of this campaign, please ask that they also submit a claim or contact our team directly.
Claim forms for the GoFundMe Guarantee can be found here: www.gofundme.com/guarantee
Please note that:
1. We will be unable to disclose any details about our investigation.
2. Personal disputes will be ignored and should be settled outside of GoFundMe.
3. Your personal information will be kept confidential from the campaign organizer.

[frozenhawaiian]

did anyone honestly think would do something other than take the money and run?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by frozenhawaiian

did anyone honestly think would do something other than take the money and run?

That's terribly cynical. I assume most of the donors to their fund thought they would do the right thing, as most people want to see the good in people. In that vein, there are still good people in the world - it's a bit sad that these two seem to be taking advantage of others' generosity.

[frozenhawaiian]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

That's terribly cynical. I assume most of the donors to their fund thought they would do the right thing, as most people want to see the good in people. In that vein, there are still good people in the world - it's a bit sad that these two seem to be taking advantage of others' generosity.

you're absolutely right. it is very cynical. it is also realistic however, having grown up in a place where starry eyed dreamer types without a clue were everywhere they become very easy to spot.

[hellosailor]

martin-
I'm not missing out. I'll go into shallow harbors and I'll go rock hopping if there's good reason for it. But for plain old fashioned pleasure sailing? Nah. We've got plenty of deep water to play in. But dockside, or on a mooring, I feel there's less need to worry about "If we roll the boat, will the mast get stuck down there?" (G)

Maybe that's why I missed out and didn't sell everything to move aboard an old wreck and cruise the world when I was 26?

[atmartin]

hellosailor-To each his own. I think "wreck" is more than a bit harsh, though.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Maybe it takes time. Don't think they already have the money in their hands.

Now there came some nasty comments (Fraudsters). But I cannot imagine that they could leave the boat just there without anybody going after them?

These are classic "judgement proof" people. No jobs, no money, no assets.
- Until they get the gobegme fund money, it can't be attached.
- By the time the process plays out (months if not years before a judgement comes thru)...expect the gobegme money to be long gone.

More likely, the authorities will not waste the money pushing for a judgement against them because they are judgement proof.

So yeah, they likely will walk away without covering their liability and get away with it.