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Old 09-08-2013, 06:51   #31
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Well as a member of the International Bucketeers Squadron, I would say this is an excellent place to use a bucket as a Drogue. Takes no time to set and generally would have only a minimal effect (just enough to move the boat and keep the chain taut).

No or inadequate bucket? how about a pot or something like that?
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:03   #32
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

I agree with Dockhead here: anchor and let boat find its most comfortable position. Any thing else is asking for trouble by complicating a simple process.
Ok, anchoring by the stern can have its benefits but in a strong tidal stream or frisky wind conditions you have a recipe for problems that wil not be easily solved once they begin. Like what? Like when the stern anchor drags !/2 boat length and now your boat is sideways to the tidal stream; the forces on the keel will be so huge that both anchors will be driven deep into the sea bottom and prove very difficult to retrieve . I have had to "cut" a stern anchor loose in this very scenario,and if you have a full keel these forces are magnified even more. So now you are in a jam the boat is heeling unnaturally and your anchor lines will be stretched taut like a rubber band.Good luck even getting you'd rode off the cleat and watch you fingers as now your remaining rode smokes out into these now turbulent waters. So now whatca gonna do? Most windlasses will not be up to the task of getting your bow anchor up now. Well lets do what we always do when in a jam and start the motor and power your way out on trouble ,right?
................................Wrong!............ ................................................

Well in order to get out of this pickle one or both anchor lines will need to be slackened right?
.................................wrong again!............................................ ................

Now your prop has just picked up one of your rodes ( most likely) our stern anchor line and now you are anchored in a strong current by the prop! It gets worse.

......................................Now you have no motor...............................

.........................................And its O' dark thirty..................................

Of course your dingy is ready to go and you are a strong swimmer so that when you dive over board with you razor sharp knife clenched in your teeth you 'll
be able to swim back to your craft as it rockets away from you as the prop is cut free.
Of course this is no reason to panic, you have already thought this all though and know you cannot swim well while holding that knife so you have tied a lanyard around that knife so when you let it go it will drop harmlessly drop below you in the water and there is nothing to worry about as you swim after retreating craft.
..................................still wrong!............................................ .........
The knife planes between your legs as you swim and your strongest stroke involves the ironically named scissor kick.

My friends,you cannot make this stuff up.I had a steel sailboat when younger which saved my bacon from the myriad unnecessary snafus I put her through in the interest of perfecting the science (and art) of anchor deployment. I'm an a lot older and somewhat wiser now and still anchor regularly in the strongly reversing currents of NYC with its heavily fouled bottom ( think railway cars or Jimmy Hoffa) and have so far had no major issues with at the single anchor system.
In case you are wondering its a Manson Supreme 25# with chain and nylon rode while cruising. This years cruise I tried the Roverhi suggestion of using the slot with good results, but the chain can make an alarming bang wnen it reverses in the slot.

Now regarding anchoring by the stern in any kind of a blow , this too is fraught with problems. As soon as the companion way is opened, the weather will enter the cabin and soak everything below and what happens if stern anchor drags and one starts dragging through other boats with no way to maneuver? I wrote on a related thread of witnessing a fine Bristol sloop run aground on a sandy beach in Block Island while dragging a lobster pot on the prop in rather benign conditions where the guys waded ashore in shallow water as the waves filled the cockpit , then flooded below
and the boat ended a total loss.
So be warned ,but some here may learn from others and some will just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
.................................................. ...............Love you all..........mike
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Old 09-08-2013, 10:01   #33
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Try an Anchor Spring Line (forward quarter spring).
Anchor Spring Lines
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Old 09-08-2013, 17:02   #34
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

I read Gord May's post on the spring lines to point you into the swell. Great stuff, this will help a lot when in the bays with lighter tidal currents (<2kts) but rougher conditions off the wind.

MROHR's post was enlightening but I do not think it is appropriate to anchor from the stern in any strong tidal currents. With only a stern anchor I would think the situation is even worse when the tide changes and now the wind and current are from the same direction as I don't think she would lay stern into the wind with tide strong. We have anchored in some rivers and bays here with 5kt tides of over 15 feet.

Our boat will hang in the current even with opposing winds over 25kts. As she sails over the anchor in the strong winds, she breaks free and the wind will push all 36 tonnes of her against the current into the closest disaster waiting. Thank god for the local Indonesian fisherman who helped us out of that situation.

So is a "running moor" as Nigel1 helpfully identified the best solution in these conditions???
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Old 09-08-2013, 21:11   #35
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What about an anchor that resets quickly without your assistance?
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Old 09-08-2013, 22:48   #36
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Lots of good stuff here. I've never rigged a spring on my anchor, but it is a great idea if conditions allow.

The bucket idea is also worth trying.

Many times I've done this dance, but it has never caused me any problems - yet.

Will try some of these ideas next time I'm not pointed the way I want to be.....
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Old 07-01-2018, 15:21   #37
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Dredging up an old thread here... please forgive me.

Anchoring in wind against a strong tidal current is very challenging for us because our boat likes to sail in wide circles around our anchor when the wind is above 15 knots and there is an opposing tidal current of about 2-3 knots, which happens in many anchorages on the ICW. We will often find ourselves moving into the wind at about 1 knot before the catenary of the chain becomes too much for the natural forces and then we will tack off in a direction away from the strongest current flow, sail down the wind and then turn back toward the swift current flow. Rinse and repeat continually until the current subsides.

In these cases we usually end up using a stern anchor as well. We put our bower into the an area that leaves enough room for us to back up, we back into an area alongside the banks of the ICW or a shallow area other boats don't anchor and then deploy a stern anchor. We drive forward and the dig the stern anchor (a Fortress FX-11) in and then rest knowing that we won't be going anywhere.

We sat like this for two months during which we experienced several bouts of 40 knot winds at our stern and beam and didn't budge an inch. The holding was thick ICW sand/mud.

I suppose that in an emergency it would be very easy for us to just drop the stern anchor and then manage the bower.

Question is - does anyone else have this sailing issue as bad as we do and how do you manage it?
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Old 07-01-2018, 15:43   #38
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
Dredging up an old thread here... please forgive me.

Anchoring in wind against a strong tidal current is very challenging for us because our boat likes to sail in wide circles around our anchor when the wind is above 15 knots and there is an opposing tidal current of about 2-3 knots, which happens in many anchorages on the ICW. We will often find ourselves moving into the wind at about 1 knot before the catenary of the chain becomes too much for the natural forces and then we will tack off in a direction away from the strongest current flow, sail down the wind and then turn back toward the swift current flow. Rinse and repeat continually until the current subsides.

In these cases we usually end up using a stern anchor as well. We put our bower into the an area that leaves enough room for us to back up, we back into an area alongside the banks of the ICW or a shallow area other boats don't anchor and then deploy a stern anchor. We drive forward and the dig the stern anchor (a Fortress FX-11) in and then rest knowing that we won't be going anywhere.

We sat like this for two months during which we experienced several bouts of 40 knot winds at our stern and beam and didn't budge an inch. The holding was thick ICW sand/mud.

I suppose that in an emergency it would be very easy for us to just drop the stern anchor and then manage the bower.

Question is - does anyone else have this sailing issue as bad as we do and how do you manage it?
My CS36 was terrible when the wind piped up. She would skate all over the anchorage and it was exacerbated by the fact that I did not have all chain. 50 feet of chain and the rest nylon.

What I used to do was put out two bower anchors. Let go the starboard anchor, drop back and let out 100 ft or so. Wheel hard aport, motor ahead until the rode was nearly abeam, stop engine, drop the port anchor and let out rode until the two hooks form a "vee". Really cuts down on the skating. Only drawback was that the rodes might get crossed at the change of tide. If I stayed in a spot a long time I'd use the dink and push the boat to uncross them. Make sure you're pushing the right way or you'll add another turn to the crossed rodes.

I notice Nonsuches and Sagas sail a lot at anchor, also one of the Catalinas, the 445 I think.
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Old 07-01-2018, 18:20   #39
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

My IP sails a lot too, what we did and havenít tried enough yet to report on was make the Sailrite anchor riding sail
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Old 07-01-2018, 18:31   #40
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

From what I've seen riding sails on sailboats don't seem to help a lot. It's very difficult to get them taught enough. They usually flop a lot. I've seen designs for a triangular, 2 sided riding sail (FinDelta) but have never seen one hoisted. I should think that an Island Packet would ride pretty good at anchor.
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Old 07-01-2018, 18:47   #41
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Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Mine moves around a lot and sails past the anchor even in no current, but what is most annoying is that it sails back and forth, meaning to the port and starboard.
Add a little current and current overrides the wind pretty easily. In the Stuart mooring field all the boats would face into the wind, except us, we would swing 90 degrees to all the other boats. My theory there was with the full keel, the tidal current overrode the wind.
Iím going to give it a try, canít hurt.
That delta thing, itís about the only one I could find already made, but I canít see what it accomplishments with the delta shape, just drag I guess
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:54   #42
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
Dredging up an old thread here... please forgive me.

Anchoring in wind against a strong tidal current is very challenging for us because our boat likes to sail in wide circles around our anchor when the wind is above 15 knots and there is an opposing tidal current of about 2-3 knots, which happens in many anchorages on the ICW. We will often find ourselves moving into the wind at about 1 knot before the catenary of the chain becomes too much for the natural forces and then we will tack off in a direction away from the strongest current flow, sail down the wind and then turn back toward the swift current flow. Rinse and repeat continually until the current subsides.

In these cases we usually end up using a stern anchor as well. We put our bower into the an area that leaves enough room for us to back up, we back into an area alongside the banks of the ICW or a shallow area other boats don't anchor and then deploy a stern anchor. We drive forward and the dig the stern anchor (a Fortress FX-11) in and then rest knowing that we won't be going anywhere.

We sat like this for two months during which we experienced several bouts of 40 knot winds at our stern and beam and didn't budge an inch. The holding was thick ICW sand/mud.

I suppose that in an emergency it would be very easy for us to just drop the stern anchor and then manage the bower.

Question is - does anyone else have this sailing issue as bad as we do and how do you manage it?
Did you try the anchor spring line suggested further up the thread? In my experience this is the killer solution for this problem.

The other thing I do is let out ALL my chain (330' of 1/2"). The weight of the chain I find really helps a lot.

What I do NOT do in changing currents is use a stern anchor. That artificially limits the swing of the boat and can put you in a bad place when the wind changes. 40 knots of wind beam-on -- you just don't want that. The boat wants to find her own comfortable position, and we need to let her. We can help her out with an anchor spring line -- sometimes gets a better harmony between wind and current forces and settles her down. I do use a stern anchor sometimes, but strictly and only in calm and settled weather.

And sometimes you just have to haul anchor and find a better spot. Deeper water sometimes helps with this.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
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Old 08-01-2018, 14:51   #43
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

I'm wondering if nigel1 did try a small drogue, and how it worked. Using a small drogue to make the multihull lie like the keel boats does usually work in a tidal stream, but maybe the drogue will stay where the current is strongest, and pull you enough away from the chain so that you don't chew up your topsides with the snubber and chain.

Just might give that a try, sometime, using the dinghy drogue.

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Old 08-01-2018, 15:14   #44
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Mine moves around a lot and sails past the anchor even in no current, but what is most annoying is that it sails back and forth, meaning to the port and starboard.
Add a little current and current overrides the wind pretty easily. In the Stuart mooring field all the boats would face into the wind, except us, we would swing 90 degrees to all the other boats. My theory there was with the full keel, the tidal current overrode the wind.
Iím going to give it a try, canít hurt.
That delta thing, itís about the only one I could find already made, but I canít see what it accomplishments with the delta shape, just drag I guess
A64, my full keel doesnít do the sail-around-anchor thing, but it does something even odder (at least odd to me). In situations where current is stronger than wind my boat tends to move upstream.

It seems that my full keel is actually generating lift in the current. So in light winds my boat moves forward, over top of my anchor. Depending on the strength of the current I can sometimes have my anchor chain angling back from the bow roller, so the anchor is astern and we are moving forward while still anchored.

Does anyone else experience this?
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Old 08-01-2018, 15:49   #45
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Re: Anchoring Wind against Tide Conditions

Yes, mine will sail past the anchor, no big deal, but what is, is sailing past a mooring ball, it leaves nasty stuff on the hull and you can hear the impact inside of the boat.
I do not like mooring balls, I guess itís because I donít like paying for something that I donít think I should have to pay for, if that makes sense.
Even if itís free, Iíd rather use my anchor I feel safer on my own ground tackle.
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