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Old 19-08-2012, 12:42   #76
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I often explain things in terms of my estates ability to win a judgement. This correctly explains who would be at fault and the likely short and long term outcomes.

Then, I get the hell out of the way.
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Old 19-08-2012, 20:23   #77
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

For the Master's course in managing ship traffic in Fairways, Channels and Open Water, come on down to Singapore.

- The Straits - Two way traffic with closing speeds of up to 50 knots. There are specific rules for joining and crossing.
- Our channel - about 1 or 1 1/2 miles across - two way traffic with ships, ferries, tows, barges etc.
- Southern Moorings - smaller ships and bunkers up to 100 meters maneuvering on and off moorings

Our racing rules are explicit
- Follow Colregs first
- Do not impede commercial traffic
- Use of engine to get out of the way is allowed if no advantage is gained in a race
- Follow racing rules of sailing last

Here are some shots of typical close quarters drills with ships around here. You really have to plan a long way in advance. Anyone asserting their "rights" could be a splatter...

Also someone mentioned passing on the windward side. This is great if you have room. I would never put my boat between a shore and the windward side. You have no option to get away at the critical moment. On the lee you can always bear away.
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Old 19-08-2012, 20:50   #78
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Bobconnie's words of wisdom should be heeded. I recall similar instances in the PNW and in San Diego where individuals who shouldn't be riding a bicycle let alone driving a power boat are in oversupply. What appeared to be somewhat effective was spotlighting them in the local marine publication. For example, I remember reading a paid advert in The Log in San Diego quite a few years ago that read (approximately), 'would the operator of the... make of vessel and length... named XXXXX, Home Ported XXXXX please contact XXXX at phone number to arrange payment for your irresponsible operation of your vessel at ...location, on XXXX date that caused breakage aboard our our boat while at anchor'. I'm sure the idiot never called but having his friends and fellow boaters read his name and the name of his boat published in a popular maritime newspaper was not only satisfying for the writer but embarrassing for the nerd operator. Worth a try... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:20   #79
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Having been in command of freighters, 50+ feet off the water on the bridge, I can tell you for a fact that you may not be easily seen. Therefor, "standing on" may not be the wisest move unless you are absolutely positive that the commercial craft has indeed seen you (and actually cares). "Early and definitive" I believe is how the colregs put avoiding a dangerous situation by altering course early, no matter who is the stand on vessel.
I have also seen the complete rig of a sailboat hanging from the anchor of a freighter, arriving in Auckland harbor, and they had no idea until the pilot told them.
We can do little about the uneducated boaters we encounter every time we go out, but I personally endeavor to not be one to the commercial traffic around me.
I'll take a 50 cal, like the kid in the pic, for the bare boats though; can one of you help me find one? Are they expensive to ship? Do they only come in grey, or can I get one in "rose" (Nikki likes "rose")?
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:26   #80
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
Having been in command of freighters, 50+ feet off the water on the bridge, I can tell you for a fact that you may not be easily seen. Therefor, "standing on" may not be the wisest move unless you are absolutely positive that the commercial craft has indeed seen you (and actually cares). "Early and definitive" I believe is how the colregs put avoiding a dangerous situation by altering course early, no matter who is the stand on vessel.
I have also seen the complete rig of a sailboat hanging from the anchor of a freighter, arriving in Auckland harbor, and they had no idea until the pilot told them.
We can do little about the uneducated boaters we encounter every time we go out, but I personally endeavor to not be one to the commercial traffic around me.
I'll take a 50 cal, like the kid in the pic, for the bare boats though; can one of you help me find one? Are they expensive to ship? Do they only come in grey, or can I get one in "rose" (Nikki likes "rose")?

The over-arching rule, the one that trumps all others, is the requirement to do everything possible to avoid a collision -- no matter who is supposed to have the right of way. If you have a collision with another vessel and you could have done anything to avoid it (such as yielding right of way) -- and did not -- you are automatically at fault as well, no matter how idiotic the skipper/captain of the other boat acted.
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:41   #81
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Yes, if there is maneuvering room....but say the Navy ship and the sailboat are in a channel where the sailboat (or motorboat) cannot maneuver to be more than 500 feet away.....would the Navy then send a boarding party to check? Or is there a risk for shoot first and ask later?

The 500 foot zone is also about the guaranteed kill-distance for small nukes vs. ships, and within the nasty zone for high yield explosives and other naughty things whose effect might not be noticeable till later.

I suppose it would depend on the situation. More likely in times of high tension, or known areas where the folks that would be keen to bag a navy ship live (such as Pennsylvania....those Amish can be vicious). Anyone know for sure if the USN has said anything one way or the other about such close quarters where strict adherence to their 500ft policy would mean shooting up small boats?
I encountered this exact scenario a couple of years ago coming into Norfolk. Kept hearing on the radio warnings about a nuclear sub leaving port and could see jets and helicopters flying around the harbor but we weren't clear on exactly where the sub was located at the time. So as we are in the channel leading into the ICW we see an Alpha and a mob of escort vessels coming towards us. Due their speed and course our only option was to hug the port side of the channel forcing a starboard to starboard passing. We were limited by draft and further limited by a dead fathometer so hove to on the edge of the channel and reported our situation on VHF 16. A RIB with 50 cal on bow the zipped up and positioned between us and the sub until the sub passed. They never pointed the 50s at us but they were manned and if we had made any funny moves, well.....
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:57   #82
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

I think some pretty different situations are getting a little confused here.

A large commercial ship (tanker, container ship, etc.) will virtually always be in a shipping lane if it's inshore, (or it will be constrained by draught), at least in these parts. I assume it would be the same in most places, including the English Channel and Singapore. This means that it has absolute right of way over a sailboat.

Offshore, the sailboat will have the right of way in pretty much any circumstance, but a prudent sailor will need to assume an imperfect watch from the larger vessel, as well as taking into account poor visibility from the bridge, especially in poor weather. The rules and good seamanship will mean that the sailboat will steer clear unless an early and obvious course change has been observed (btw, AIS rules offshore).

Car ferries are relatively nimble, outside of shipping lanes, and have much more attentive crews. I personally feel comfortable with when I should stand on to make it easy for them to dodge me, and when I should take very early action so they don't get put in an awkward position in a tight or crowded spot.

I struggle with cruise ships, though. They're often outside of shipping lanes because they're going different places. They're a lot larger than any ferry, and the crews don't necessarily have local knowledge or are used to the local traffic. Frankly, I don't really trust them to do what they should, so I'm much more careful with them.
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Old 21-08-2012, 01:15   #83
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

The term sailboat has been used a lot in this thread.
Just to make it clear to everyone,when you are reading these posts if you are using your engine for propulsion you are a powered vessel and your status changes. Don't assume because your vessel would be described as a "sailing boat" that the navigation regulations (and privileges) that go with with term continue to apply if you are motoring, or even motorsailing.

It is a common confusion in my experience and an easy one to make.

As well as restricted draft that is discussed extensively in this thread it worth noting that there are other exceptions where sailboats are required to give way to powered boats, a vessel engaged in fishing for example.

This is a good thread,with some excellent tips, but to understand the rules properly reading the collision regulations is vital.
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Old 21-08-2012, 01:21   #84
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

WE should also all be aware that the prime rule of the sea is "show good seamanship". Having the right of way, while great is not an excuse to sail into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable.

As I noted, when a sea court doles out blame, it is rare indeed that it apportions 100% of the blame to one side. And this is because even if the other part acted like a complete idiot - the court will look closely to see if you could have done something at an earlier stage that would have avoided the situation entirely.

Sorry guys - but that is the real world.

But there is no excuse for being on the water and not knowing the Colregs.
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Old 21-08-2012, 03:11   #85
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
The over-arching rule, the one that trumps all others, is the requirement to do everything possible to avoid a collision -- no matter who is supposed to have the right of way. If you have a collision with another vessel and you could have done anything to avoid it (such as yielding right of way) -- and did not -- you are automatically at fault as well, no matter how idiotic the skipper/captain of the other boat acted.
+1

A very accurate explanation of how the Colregs work, and well expressed.
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Old 21-08-2012, 05:51   #86
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

The other day I was passing the front of a harbour, about a mile outside, i notice a large power boat coming towards me on starboard, i watch him , he will pass behind me, ok no, he has changed course, so i revved up the engine to clear him, and he alters course yet again to pass on front, by the time he reaches me he had to drop out of plane, he throws his arms in the air , mumbling stuff in french i cant reply to,now i should give way to a degree , but he was slightly aft starboard, doing 30 plus knots and me only able to do 7, so who was in the wrong?
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Old 21-08-2012, 06:23   #87
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The term sailboat has been used a lot in this thread.
Just to make it clear to everyone,when you are reading these posts if you are using your engine for propulsion you are a powered vessel and your status changes. Don't assume because your vessel would be described as a "sailing boat" that the navigation regulations (and privileges) that go with with term continue to apply if you are motoring, or even motorsailing.

It is a common confusion in my experience and an easy one to make.

As well as restricted draft that is discussed extensively in this thread it worth noting that there are other exceptions where sailboats are required to give way to powered boats, a vessel engaged in fishing for example.

This is a good thread,with some excellent tips, but to understand the rules properly reading the collision regulations is vital.

You're right. We sailboats are just the same as any other engine vessel when under mechanical power.

But in addition, the sailboat does not always have right of way. Cruise ships have the right of way, as do freighters, because they really aren't very maneuverable. I would get the heck out of the way of a ferry as well and would not assume they had more maneuverability than me.

I would urge people to understand that reading the regulations is not enough. If you don't have a background in maritime law you may misunderstand how they're applied. A maritime lawyer would read not only the actual rules but how courts have decided in the past -- how they have been applied.
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Old 21-08-2012, 06:32   #88
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

stevenuf

Sounds like he considered himself as the overtaking boat. The Regs then sya you should maintain course and speed. It is his problem to get around you. When you then changed source, he had to take evasive action adn then one more time. Assuming he was an overtaking boat - no wonder he threw up his hands in disgust
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:13   #89
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

It isn't like one really needs to be "educated" about common sense things. They need to "care about others". Unfortunately, many boaters don't, and short of pulling up the hook and moving, there is only one other tactic.

That's politely asking for what you want, given the opportunity... This may elicit the middle finger, threats of violence, or once in a while, an apology and different behavior.

I only have about 10% success with this tactic, because as I said, it is usually that they just don't care. Can't change that...

Obviously:

PEOPLE SHOULD ENTER ANCHORAGES AT A DISTANCE AND REASONABLE SPEED.

THEY SHOULD THEN ANCHOR AS FAR AWAY FROM OTHERS AS POSSIBLE, PREFERABLY NOT UP WIND.

IN NARROW ANCHORAGES, THEY SHOULD LOOK AT THE BOATS AROUND THEM TO SEE IF THEY ARE ON A BAHAMIAN MOOR. IF THEY ARE, THEY SHOULD ANCHOR ACCORDINGLY.

IF THE ANCHORAGE IS "FULL", DO NOT SQUEEZE IN THERE ANYWAY. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!

ALWAYS SET THE HOOK FOR A GALE! SUDDEN 60 + KNOT THUNDERSTORMS, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, ARE COMMON.

BE QUIET! SOUND TRAVELS OVER THE WATER LIKE NOWHERE ELSE, AND BOATS ARE EXTREMELY SOUND TRANSPARENT. THIS MEANS... NO SCREAMING, LOUD BOOM BOXES, JET SKIS, BARKING DOGS, OR GENERATORS ABOVE DECK THAT CAN BE HEARD MORE THAN 50', (THINGS LIKE PORTABLE GASOLINE GENERATORS, LOUD WIND GENERATORS, ETC.)

An anchorage is an ever changing, traveling neighborhood, and nothing makes or breaks a neighborhood, as much as the consideration of your neighbors.

Like all other aspects in life, the best way to "get" what we want, is to
"BE" what we want to get. There is no other lifestyle where this is as important.

There will still be the occasional ass hole out there, but the important thing is for us to not be one...
M.
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Old 21-08-2012, 07:15   #90
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Besides, the PowerRegs state "no [self-respecting] powerboat will allow a [measly little] sailboat to pass in front."
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