Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-08-2012, 20:40   #61
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
But then I must remind myself to rephrase the statement, "It's a bareboat. They don't have a clue, so just keep a sharp eye on it and don't let it get near us. Wait a minute, what IS he doing?
Watch out, it's turning towards us, sh**, look out, oh crap....."
Sorry all, a bad memory or a prescient moment?
We do so love the bareboaters down here.
I heard it recently phrased as "the most maneuverable boat gives way to the lesser", and in the case you mention the fellows 2 brain cells don't allow him to helm his boat in any manner that actually makes sense, clearly making you the give way vessel.
__________________

__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2012, 20:44   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Better the common sence of the BIGGER Boat gets the right of way !! Then dead folks that think they have the right of way !! just sayin theres a bunch of pleasure boaters that have no Idea what we are even talking about here !! Just sayin ya can't stop em from sailing what they bought !! maybe the rules should be a required to be known before ya can buy a boat ???
__________________

__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 01:22   #63
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by capta
foolishsailor
I have met a whole lot of sailors, some with a considerable amount of experience sailing their own boats for pleasure, who live by the tonnage rule, honestly. They seem to know no others, they just stay out of the way of larger craft. They may say it laughingly, but underneath it all, that is their understanding of the rules. Scary, don't you think?
cwyckham
No offense, but you illustrate my point: "because I have the right of way.", you know better, but you fell back into the "right of way" mind set in only a few lines. We all need to completely change our thought patterns from the old to the new.
I fall into it too, when Nikki and I are sailing between islands down here; telling her not to worry about that bareboat bearing down on us because we "have the right of way." But then I must remind myself to rephrase the statement, "It's a bareboat. They don't have a clue, so just keep a sharp eye on it and don't let it get near us. Wait a minute, what IS he doing?
Watch out, it's turning towards us, sh**, look out, oh crap....."
Sorry all, a bad memory or a prescient moment?
We do so love the bareboaters down here.
I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but the terminology is not new. I even used old terms as jack dale pointed out. The colregs have used stand on and giveway since around 2004???

Along your point there do seem to be two types of sailors more than anything else and they lie at opposite ends of the spectrum. The ones who know all the rules and assume that the boat coming does as well and the ones who only know that they are a sailboat.

As cwyckham mentioned, he takes early action when encountering large vessels to avoid entering a colreg situation in the first place. This is the best advice out there.

No one wants to be in a sailboat and be the stand on vessel in near quarters with a huge commercial vessel but if you have allowed yourself into this situation knowing the rules is critical. I think the lack of knowledge some boaters have is due to environment as well. If you sail regularly on the Solent you had better know the rules or you will get an earful on the radio, or be dead.

The rules do work especially inshore, but offshore it is a different story due to the failure of commercial vessels to see you. Frequently vessels neither have an active radar watch, radio watch or visual watch. Violate rules 5 and not legal but true. We have witnessed this uncountable times when attempting to contact large ships in the middle of the ocean that were close. We also know that even with adequate watch they sometimes can't see you as we have also contacted and spoke with numerous vessels that could neither see us visually or on radar even when we gave our position and were less than 2 miles away. However I have also seen large tankers make a sharp-ish and large course change at 5 miles to avoid us...

I am always reminded of the famous picture in Aldard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" where there is one of the older ships with the external mounted anchors pulled tight to the hull. There is a sailboat mast stuck to them and the captain when questioned had no idea when it had occurred.

But then I guess I have talked myself full circle back to the rules as they cover this as well

2(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 03:33   #64
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

The tonnage rule is much like the frightened man with a bucket saying - both completely wrong, but nonetheless enough truth in them to get the underlying point accross.

I think how folks deal with large commercial shipping is influenced by the area they are in and there own knowledge. In home waters it is easy enough to stay out of the way of large commercial shipping (using the tonnage rule? or just being polite?) because you know where they are going / what they will be doing - so easy for you not to also be there at the same time, or in a way that is easy for everyone to understand - without forcing your "rights" upon them. Elsewhere not always so easy.

As already touched upon in this thread, in addition to the Tonnage Rule there is also the Numpty Rule - if you think the other fella is a Numpty then a wide berth is prudent, even if you could instead rely on enforcing your "rights" (real or imagined ).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 04:33   #65
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

The thread has drifted, but it's interesting.

It is elementary common sense to stay out of the way of large commercial vessels (the "tonnage rule"). They can't see you at close quarters from their bridges (even if they're looking), and they can't maneuver like we can.

But there is a paradox -- there are dangers in acting like the give-way vessel when you are the stand-on vessel according to the Colregs. That is because one important reason for naming one vessel in an encounter as the stand-on vessel is so that the give-way vessel can decide how to maneuver based on the course and speed of the stand-on vessel. If both are maneuvering at the same time, unaware of the other's intentions, this can lead to a collision.

So the "tonnage rule" is not quite so simple as just "even if I am the stand-on vessel I'm just going to always give way to vessels who have much more tonnage than I do." It takes more than that -- I think our goal should always be to avoid being in close quarters to begin with, if it is at all possible, so that no one even gets to the question of who is give-way and who stand-on.

This problem is really hard when crossing the English Channel, the busiest sea lane in the world. Sailing across the Channel is -- as someone said -- feels like being a squirrel running across a busy motorway. That is because the crossing situations can usually be predicted from at least a couple of miles off. So who maneuvers? You can really screw up the big ship helmsman's manuever if you start changing course, when you are the stand-on vessel, and if he is in fact maneuvering. After a dozen crossings, I have finally settled on a routine where I hold course and speed as required by the Colregs but watch very carefully for course changes on the passing large ship. If I don't see a course change within a mile or so of a potential collision, I make a dramatic course change so that the other helmsman has no doubt that I am giving way. Usually what I do is tack (or turn downwind) onto a reciprocal course with the ship so that he can pass by. But this maneuver by itself can be dangerous -- if the big ship is altering course towards me to let me pass ahead, for example. So it is essential to be aware of how he is maneuvering. Here AIS is invaluable, of course -- you can just read the course and speed off your screen, and you have the ship's MMSI so you can just call him up if there is any doubt.

One point which ought to be a separate, explicit rule of the Colregs, instead of being merely implied as it is now: No one should ever manuever abruptly in a way which creates a close-quarters situation, where none existed. Especially where the vessel you are creating the close quarters situation is less manueverable than you are. This happens to me with depressing regularity in the Solent -- dinghy sailors tacking right under my bows; rowboats rowing themselves right into my path, requiring a crash stop and a prayer to prevent running someone down.

Earlier this year I was much cursed by one racing skipper (practicing, not racing, although that's not really relevant). I had just motored out into Southampton Water from the Hamble, and he tacked from a nearly reciprocal course to a collision course with me. He was hard on the wind, so I made an instant decision to speed up, rather than try a crash stop -- why? I knew that if I didn't manage to stop quickly enough, the racing skipper would have no place to go and we would simply crash. Whereas by speeding up, I gave him the option to fall off a bit to pass behind, which is what he did. He didn't agree, and there was much shouting and brandishing of fists as he passed a meter behind my stern, but I think that creating that entirely unnecessary situation was an act of shockingly bad seamanship on his part -- entirely unecessary because if he had tacked 15 seconds later, he would have passed easily behind.

That's what I call abuse of one's stand-on position, which as others have said, does not exonerate you in case of a collision.

Concerning the OP's situation sailing in a channel -- I agree with other posters here. Assuming the large commercial vessel was navigating in a channel constrained by draft, he should have hove-to and let the barge get past. To create a situation where other vessels are squeezed out of the channel -- even if they are obnoxious speeding moboers -- is not right -- not allowed by the rules and not good seamanship. The speeding moboer had the right to use the channel according to the rules, meaning passing the barge red to red. Of course he also did not show the best seamanship by rushing into a situation which no doubt he could see was constrained. But the OP should have hove-to and waited.

Just because we're sailing doesn't mean that we can do absolutely anything we want to, and it is exclusively the problem of other vessels to stay out of our way -- the rules don't work that way at all, and even less does good seamanship and ordinary prudence work that way.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 09:02   #66
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,767
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

we are , by law, mandated to give way to ships--merchant, navy and cruise-- we are mandated since 9-11-2001 to make sure there is a 500 ft safe zone around these. if there is a collision resulting from a sailboat insisting on his alleged right of way, the sailboat is at fault.
is no longer a rule of gross tonnage but a rule of patriot act. thou shalt not sail or motor within 500 ft of a protected vessel.
insisting on your right of way is also a criminal act if it causes a collision. that resulting collision that SHOULD HAVE BEEN avoided WILL BE RULED FAULT OF THE VESSEL INSISTING ON HIS ALLEGED RIGHT OF WAY.
when sailing a channel and approached by a ship navigating the same narrow channel, the sailboat my wear ship or perform other necessary acts to save his vessel, as he is in the way of a protected vessel. sail where channel is too shallow for the approaching ship, wear ship, do what you need to do to avoid the collision.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 13:38   #67
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

If a sailboat is in a narrow channel, and a navy ship with an enforce-by-gunfire 500 foot exclusion zone around it comes down the same channel, does one hastily jump in the dink and race to the safe zone to watch your main boat get hosed with .50cal? Or would that maneuver guarantee some attention from Browning's Finest, or even his bigger brothers Vulcan, Bushmaster and Five Inch?

Can't exit the danger zone because the boat will stop if it runs aground...

Too slow to outrun the navy ship...

What to do?
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 13:58   #68
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,767
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

just remain away-- there is no trouble unless you try to sail or motor in front or into the ship. sailors have no right of way with ships. even when under sail alone. ship owns channel.

is fun to watch military police intercept the sailboats in sd bay when they sail too close to navy ships.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 14:20   #69
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Yes, if there is maneuvering room....but say the Navy ship and the sailboat are in a channel where the sailboat (or motorboat) cannot maneuver to be more than 500 feet away.....would the Navy then send a boarding party to check? Or is there a risk for shoot first and ask later?

The 500 foot zone is also about the guaranteed kill-distance for small nukes vs. ships, and within the nasty zone for high yield explosives and other naughty things whose effect might not be noticeable till later.

I suppose it would depend on the situation. More likely in times of high tension, or known areas where the folks that would be keen to bag a navy ship live (such as Pennsylvania....those Amish can be vicious). Anyone know for sure if the USN has said anything one way or the other about such close quarters where strict adherence to their 500ft policy would mean shooting up small boats?
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 14:34   #70
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,767
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

i have watched as the navy police make sure they(police boats) are between the sailboat and the navy ship being protected/transiting channel....they herd the offending boats into places they consider safe zones for the transiting ship. they wont arrest ye but there is little if any place for the sailboat to get into trouble--if the big ship is merchant, is possible to be hit by the ship, if you insist on being not smart and occupying middle of the channel. even sd bay is dredged deep enough for a sailboat to maneuver outside the channel, so there is actually no excuse to be in their way or too close. monitor channel 16, vhf to make sure YOU are not in THEIR way.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 15:20   #71
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,436
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Don't worry, I intend to live and let live; and if the big grey boat and his little boat friends want to go somewhere, I'll let them.
__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 15:42   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

All the rules are great !! Untill ya come to a place Like Louisiana!! theres a bunch of Operaters down here with 100 ton Lics, That seem to have no idea there was ever a rule book!!LOL Ya just have to be aware that your the LIttle guy and leave yourself a little wiggle room !! ya may not like it as you know ALL the rules!! but your boat is more important then rules !! at least mine is to me !! Remember the time ya spend in court ya can't be sailin !! even if ya win !! the best rule ive heard of is "keep your eyes open and figure the other guy is asleep and don't give damn" I always give anybody driving a work boat all the room I can !! cus Ive been on both sides of the problem !! I know what ya have to do to control a tow !! just relax and use your head !! just my 2 cents
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 16:02   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 62
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

sounds like you were anchored in the channel
__________________
xiabbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 16:13   #74
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,536
Images: 14
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This problem is really hard when crossing the English Channel, the busiest sea lane in the world. Sailing across the Channel is -- If I don't see a course change within a mile or so of a potential collision, I make a dramatic course change so that the other helmsman has no doubt that I am giving way. .
AT 1am in the morning the VHF crackled into life with the message

"Little yacht on my port side this is the Grande Princess, what are your intentions?"

We were sailing along happily at 5.5 knots at the time, but with AIS I could see he was going to pass close to our stern as he dashed up channel. We altered 30' to Port for a couple of minutes which completely altered the situation giving him lots of space without needing to change course. We probably moved a couple of hundred yards in that time, hardly making much difference on a sixty mile passage.

The loss of the yacht Ouzo possibly sunk by a large ferry is still fresh in the minds of many on the South Coast of England.

Pete
__________________
Moody 31 - April Lass
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2012, 16:15   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Nope ! never anchor in a channel !! besides theres to many places to dock down here to have to anchor anywhere!!
__________________

__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.