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Old 17-08-2012, 00:33   #46
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

As others have said: an anchor buoy is a real hazard - it will trip your anchor if someone runs into it. Just lose it. If you anchor in fouled ground and snag your anchor, you can free your anchor in other ways - just run a bowline down the rode from the opposite direction from your dink, just to name one technique.

#2: use chain instead of rope. As others have said, it tends to lie on the bottom and hardly ever gets caught in anyone's stern gear, and even if it did, would hardly get cut.

#3: if you sail in idiot-infested waters, you'll have to either learn to put up with it, or find better cruising grounds.

Either that or a swivel-mounted 50 cal machine with a few belts of AP tracers. Just kidding, of course, on that last
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Old 17-08-2012, 00:58   #47
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

You have now received a lot of good advice, mostly pretty PC.

Here is a non-PC but not illegal means of striking back at folks who come too close to you: go buy a few 50 foot lengths of 1/4 inch cheap polypropylene line. Attach a small rubber ball to the ends of each one, thus making some heaving lines...something every yacht should have on board. Then when someone is approaching for a close-by pass, simply heave the line across their projected path. You will not be able to throw it more than the 50 foot length of the line, so if perchance it becomes entangled in their props, they must have been pretty damn close to you.

I have never done this personally... don't usually have that much angst, but a chap I once knew who spent lots of time in the Sacremento river delta used it successfully to deal with waterskiers who repeatedly buzzed his anchored boat.

But really, mate, Dockheads advice is pretty much on target... I agree with all three of his suggestions (not the MG's, though!)

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Old 17-08-2012, 01:23   #48
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

1. Use a much smaller anchor float, on a line that's threaded through a ring on the head of the anchor, and lets you pull the float down to the anchor once all is snug. It's there if you need to pull the head of the anchor up, and it won't attract 'flies and other pests'. 2. Your chain sounds too short, long enough to stop your own anchor from cutting your rope rode, only just?
3. Two horns is 'I am putting my rudder to starboard' as I remember, used by VLC shipping turning the Bramble Bank in a difficult channel, providing an extra 'wake up' to all craft in the area. Vessels passing head to head should default to Red to Red except where clear manoeuvres indicate a different method, ie. aim to pass green to green, and get a response to show the other vessel has seen you, altered course to avoid, and therefore understands your intention. If it doesn't alter course then it's Not Under Command and it's up to you to avoid.
4. And how did a fast vessel 'suddenly' appear behind you? Yes, we've all done it, focussed on the current problem, failed to keep a look out. Being caught out by an idiot impressing his girl/boy friend with some close passes is really annoying.
5. Most Lifeboat crew members are active boatmen. It's a shame the 'river police' don't take action on their reports of bad seamanship, form lifeboats or their own cruising vessels. A warning should be enough to improve, if not cure.
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Old 17-08-2012, 03:39   #49
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Regarding the statement that "if it ever ends up in court then the law is on my side"

hmmmmm. Actually, it is rare that a sea court allocates blame 100% to one side in a collision situation. Usually the blame is apportioned 80/20 or 79/30 or something. Why? Because the basic rule of seamanship is showing good seamanship - meaning you should have been aware of your surroundings and you should not have allowed yourself to get into a situation where you had no possibility of taking evasive action.

Sorry - but that's the real world. Having said that - there are quite a few idiots out there who don't know or respect the right of ways/signals/lanterns.

But they exist almost everywhere
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Old 17-08-2012, 09:24   #50
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Re: Anchored vessels etiquette

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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
3. Two horns is 'I am putting my rudder to starboard' as I remember, used by VLC shipping turning the Bramble Bank in a difficult channel, providing an extra 'wake up' to all craft in the area. Vessels passing head to head should default to Red to Red except where clear manoeuvres indicate a different method, ie. aim to pass green to green, and get a response to show the other vessel has seen you, altered course to avoid, and therefore understands your intention. If it doesn't alter course then it's Not Under Command and it's up to you to avoid.
You got me curious, for another look..........

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I swear every time we go out its like we're putting our lives at risk because of everyone else that doesn't obey the rules.
Might be a clue in there somewhere......

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Coming back also we had another problem in the ship channel. Sailing 5 knots full sail upwind on the windward side of the channel. Big barge coming at us and I know I'm on the wron side but he was nice and gavel two horn blasts for pass on stbd. Nice captain. It was Too shallow outside the markers for both of us and I was grateful he let me stay on the windward side. Our bows were just about to meet when a big motor yacht come from behind me and shoots down his port side. The barge driver held his course thank god! They almost traded paint though.
So, the Captain of the barge was "nice" because although he (and you) broke the usual rules he fitted around what you wanted to do..........But the Skipper of the big motor yacht was an idiot because he passed the barge port to port? (I am not excusing his mistake in over assuming that the barge would do as expected and that led to a close call - but he probably also (over) assumed that you were not constrained by draft, otherwise why would you be dicking around on the wrong side of the channel with a large commercial vessel that had restricted room (and ability) to manouevre?).

My guess is that on a Mobo (and a Commercial Barge?!) forum somewhere that the tale revolves around some numpty in a sailboat. My bet is that your story would as well if you had been on either of those Vessels.

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Old 17-08-2012, 10:15   #51
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Ouch. I don't know USA rules, I was leaving room for that.
They even put their boowies on the wrong sides pf the channel, so they say in Bristol.
And their lifeboats only save souls, not their homes.
From the usa tv 'shooting a line' has nothing to do with sextants either.

Never the less, a serious post about short comings, and a free advert for those authorities that want to Licence Private Sailors.
Respect to you, DoJ, time to leave harbour though, there's a storm brewing.

ps - sense of humour intact but doesn't always translate well.
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Old 17-08-2012, 11:38   #52
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Sometimes just being under sail do not give ya the right of way !! Anytime ya must share the water with large commercial traffic, ie Tugs and Barges, ya better get your stuff together !! cus the capt of the Tug has way less control over his vessel then you do !! if you make a mistake, even if your in the right ! you can still end up DEAD !!! and you boat gone !! Ive been on both sides of this type of situation!! and believe me theres no right or wrong, just trouble for everybody !! The tug Capt was not being a NICE guy ! he was making sure his tow was safe and he gave you a chance even tho he was in the right to continue in the proper lane, and make you take avaisvie action !! just sayin if there Bigger then you bear off and don't be the guy in the right whos LIVE relitives need to go to court to get your left overs !! not being mean but my life and yours are way more important then whos right or wrong !! if the power boat got clear, all he did was sneak up on ya LOL and thats Not against the rules LOL Remember safety first and getting home is more important then being a little late doing it !! Just my 2 cents
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Old 17-08-2012, 12:02   #53
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Either that or a swivel-mounted 50 cal machine with a few belts of AP tracers. Just kidding, of course, on that last
Here you go. The cruiser's version.
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Old 17-08-2012, 12:07   #54
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Quote:
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Sometimes just being under sail do not give ya the right of way !! Anytime ya must share the water with large commercial traffic, ie Tugs and Barges, ya better get your stuff together !! cus the capt of the Tug has way less control over his vessel then you do !! if you make a mistake, even if your in the right ! you can still end up DEAD !!! and you boat gone !! Ive been on both sides of this type of situation!! and believe me theres no right or wrong, just trouble for everybody !! The tug Capt was not being a NICE guy ! he was making sure his tow was safe and he gave you a chance even tho he was in the right to continue in the proper lane, and make you take avaisvie action !! just sayin if there Bigger then you bear off and don't be the guy in the right whos LIVE relitives need to go to court to get your left overs !! not being mean but my life and yours are way more important then whos right or wrong !! if the power boat got clear, all he did was sneak up on ya LOL and thats Not against the rules LOL Remember safety first and getting home is more important then being a little late doing it !! Just my 2 cents
Bob is so right. So many people forget the main rule of the road when dealing with commercial traffic weather inshore or offshore is the Rule of Gross Tonnage.

He who has the most tonnage has the right of way...
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Old 17-08-2012, 15:55   #55
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

We're pretty far off topic here, but you ALL have got to wake up.
First and foremost, NOBODY has the "right of way" any longer; the rules have been rewritten.
As written in today's colregs, there is a "stand on" vessel and a "burdened" vessel, period. And to put all that in perspective, the final word in the regulations states that "any vessel that CAN avoid a collision SHALL avoid a collision" again, period.
The rule of tonnage does not exist (actually it infuriates me when I hear it); you must consider any possible action or inability of action (hampered maneuverability, for instance even an 18' OB powered Sea Tow boat, towing) not her size, before you place yourself foolishly in harm's way.
So change your thinking; that ship, tug & barge, fishing boat or even tour boat, may not be able to avoid you, no matter WHO is the stand on vessel.
It's your life and the lives of those with you, take on the burden and be sensible.
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Old 17-08-2012, 16:15   #56
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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We're pretty far off topic here, but you ALL have got to wake up.
First and foremost, NOBODY has the "right of way" any longer; the rules have been rewritten.
As written in today's colregs, there is a "stand on" vessel and a "burdened" vessel, period. And to put all that in perspective, the final word in the regulations states that "any vessel that CAN avoid a collision SHALL avoid a collision" again, period.
The rule of tonnage does not exist (actually it infuriates me when I hear it); you must consider any possible action or inability of action (hampered maneuverability, for instance even an 18' OB powered Sea Tow boat, towing) not her size, before you place yourself foolishly in harm's way.
So change your thinking; that ship, tug & barge, fishing boat or even tour boat, may not be able to avoid you, no matter WHO is the stand on vessel.
It's your life and the lives of those with you, take on the burden and be sensible.
I'm glad you said that. I would just add a bit of a nuance that, as I understand it, if you are the stand-on vessel, you must by law stand on (in order to avoid confusion and two vessels turning into eachother while both trying to avoid the other, etc.). This includes not tacking or changing your course or speed so that the burdened vessel can avoid you. The give-way vessel must make an early and obvious course correction. Only once the stand-on vessel decides that collision is immenent (though still avoidable) is the stand-on vessel obligated to take whatever action necessary to avoid a collision.

I think the distinction is really important, as otherwise, if everybody's trying to give way to each other at the same time, you an cause a collision. Two boats converging, both turning to the other's transom, are still converging! I regularly maintain my course when faced with a converging 10,000 tonne ferry carrying 300 cars and travelling at 20 knots (as long as we're not in a tight channel where she would be constrained by draft). And they always go around me, because I have the right of way. Scares the bejeezuz out of my passengers, though.
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Old 17-08-2012, 16:44   #57
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The rule of tonnage does not exist (actually it infuriates me when I hear it)
You are the first person i have heard that actually thinks anyone else believes this is a real rule versus humor.

You bring up the correct terms of burdened and priviledged which actually reinforce the important concept that the rule of gross tonnage humorously conveys..

The rules are less important than your life, and when in open water and i see a large vessel that appears to be approaching on a close crossing i dont care less who is priviledged or burdened. I make a clear and substantial alteration in course.

The rules only work if both parties see each other and know the rules.

Forcing a large ferry to alter course when your own vessel is more able to do so is unnessary and foolish unless there was a reason other than the fact that you can.
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Old 17-08-2012, 17:27   #58
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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...
Forcing a large ferry to alter course when your own vessel is more able to do so is unnessary and foolish unless there was a reason other than the fact that you can.
The reason is the collision regulations. I am obligated to stand-on. If I start dancing in front of him trying to get out of his way while he's trying to fulfil his obligations to get out of mine, I'm causing him far more harm (and possibly creating an unsafe situation).

He's traveling at 20 knots and steering with a joy-stick. It's not hard for him to change course by a few degrees to stay away from me. It would take ages for me to move out of his way at 2-3 knots, and I'd have to make significant changes to my sails to do so, generally. The rules were written that way for a reason.

Of course, I'm not such a jerk that if I see a ferry a long ways off and know that we're going to meet in a place that would be inconvenient for him to avoid me that I wouldn't alter my plans enough that the situation never arises. Generally, though, anywhere that he would find it awkward to avoid me is going to also be a place where he's constrainded by draft and I need to give way to him anyways.

The rules do work. And they need to be applied consistently so that we can all anticipate each other's actions.
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Old 17-08-2012, 19:57   #59
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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You bring up the correct terms of burdened and priviledged which actually reinforce the important concept that the rule of gross tonnage humorously conveys..
Those terms do not exist in the IRPCS. Stand-on, give-way and keep clear are the phrases.
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Old 17-08-2012, 20:30   #60
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

foolishsailor
I have met a whole lot of sailors, some with a considerable amount of experience sailing their own boats for pleasure, who live by the tonnage rule, honestly. They seem to know no others, they just stay out of the way of larger craft. They may say it laughingly, but underneath it all, that is their understanding of the rules. Scary, don't you think?
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No offense, but you illustrate my point: "because I have the right of way.", you know better, but you fell back into the "right of way" mind set in only a few lines. We all need to completely change our thought patterns from the old to the new.
I fall into it too, when Nikki and I are sailing between islands down here; telling her not to worry about that bareboat bearing down on us because we "have the right of way." But then I must remind myself to rephrase the statement, "It's a bareboat. They don't have a clue, so just keep a sharp eye on it and don't let it get near us. Wait a minute, what IS he doing?
Watch out, it's turning towards us, sh**, look out, oh crap....."
Sorry all, a bad memory or a prescient moment?
We do so love the bareboaters down here.
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