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Old 03-09-2012, 11:44   #196
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Dockhead (still with the thread drift)

One use of a VHF radio that many pleasure vessel operators neglect is listening to Vessel Traffic Services when prudent to do so. This was noted in a finding be the Canadian Traffic Safety Board after a collision between a ferry and a pleasure craft in the vicinity of a ferry terminal.



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At night I monitor VTS and let them know I am "out there." I have had occasion to converse with other traffic to clarify intentions.
I agree. That's a good tip. I don't always do it because it's a minor hassle setting up dual watch on the VHF, but I think you've reminded me to try harder to overcome such laziness.

The ship traffic in the Solent can be horrendous, and I find it particularly horrifying sometimes at night. With some rise of tide, we can sail outside of the Thorn Channel and other shipping channels and it's not so bad. But if the tide is low, we have to share the channels with tons of shipping. They are constrained by draft and we have to keep out of their way, and it can be tricky -- confusing at night. The big ships coming into Southampton have to manuever around the Bramble Bank, and it's hard to judge their trajectory at night without references. There are regular collisions between yachts and ships there. This guy, for example, at Cowes Week last year:



got it very wrong!

I sail past this spot every time I go to sea. The whole area is controlled by VTS on Channel 12.
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Old 03-09-2012, 17:36   #197
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
You can't make generalities from specific examples.
Actually you can - it is called inductive reasoning. It is how generalities are developed.
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Old 03-09-2012, 18:29   #198
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Rules are rules. But Collisions are Collisions !! Now I know the rules, but I will break them anytime it will keep me from haveing a collision!! now thats common sense!! anything else IS STUPID ! and stupid is a lifelong thing, only cured by death !! In my 74 years of living, Ive seen a bunch of folks sink or damage there vessels, and the biggest reason for these events was a stupid mistake ! knowalge of the rules would have had been of very little use in most of these cases !! Just like anchoring , if ya open your eyes, and figure out what ya need to do to be safe and not infringe on another boats space, you wont have to many problems !but if ya don't look and think ! ya sure are gonna have a problem ! no matter what ya do ya have to think a little to be safe !! Thats my 2 cents

In addition to being good common sense it is actually what the regs say as well -- do everything possible to avoid a collision.
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Old 03-09-2012, 18:30   #199
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Actually you can - it is called inductive reasoning. It is how generalities are developed.

OK. You can't do it and demand specific cites at the same time. That is manipulative.
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Old 09-09-2012, 00:58   #200
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
That's a lot of garbage.

So me skippering a charter on a shiny white catamaran is less "commercial" than your tug? The charter shop probably makes more money and costs the harbor less to operate; it's not some pee-ing contest where the filthier and the bigger the boat the more "commercial" it is and the more it gets deference on the water.

I never interfere with commercial traffic when I can avoid it, but that's me being nice to people who are working. I try not to slow up the mailman or chat up busy bartenders either.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:02   #201
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

"
Originally Posted by capta
A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive."


Did you see the drubbing I got for saying that?


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Old 09-09-2012, 13:24   #202
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Jackdale will no doubt remember this event where a pleasure boat under sail with 4 aboard elected to pass astern of a tugboat in the inner Staits of Juan de Fuca. I believe it was around dusk as the commercial tug had a light array clearly indicating he was under tow. The sailboat cleared the stern of the tug without incident until her keel caught the towline and was run over by the barge in tow. There may have been one survivor but there was also significant loss of life aboard the sailboat. Thr resultant inquiry made headlines in the Pacific northwest when it occurred.
When arguing over who has right of way and which colregs are in play it is wise to remember that it is everyones duty at anchor or underway to avoid collision either through commission or ommission of their actions. Capt Phil
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Old 09-09-2012, 13:37   #203
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
When arguing over who has right of way and which colregs are in play it is wise to remember that it is everyones duty at anchor or underway to avoid collision either through commission or ommission of their actions. Capt Phil
Some people seem to always discount the big boat rule!

I don't really feel all that bad about people who give more consideration to rules than their own self preservation.

Lets stop fighting about about rules etc and just admit that there isn't any cure for stupid except death.
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Old 09-09-2012, 16:25   #204
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

This thread has been a most interesting read. It seems to me that no one here has a decent understanding of the rules of navigation. People seem to focus on one aspect of the regulations while completely ignoring clarifying provisions in other parts of the regulations. Some people even seem to be making up their own regulations. There is no regulation that I can find anywhere that provides different rules for pleasure vessels than for commercial vessels. All of the regulations pertain only to size and types of operations and ability to maneuver. A commercial vessel under power is required to give way to vessels engaged in certain kinds of fishing as is a pleasure boat. No mention of any kind in the regulations of whether the non-fishing vessel is pleasure or commercial. With regards to size it clearly states that when applying the steering rules that due consideration must be given to the other vessels ability to maneuver. Call it the rule of gross tonnage or what ever else you want to call it, but it's pretty clear that a large container ship or a VLCC has less ability to maneuver and that if a close passage situation develops it will be up to me to maneuver out of the way of the larger vessel. The regulations do not make mention of whether the vessels are commercial or pleasure. I would be required to give the same consideration to a 250 ft motor yacht as I would a 250 ft frieghter when applying steerage rules. I've noticed a pretty spectacular lack of awareness of the regulations by both commercial and pleasure boaters during my trip up the east coast of the US this year. The worst seem to be commercial fishermen. They seem to think that being a commercial fisherman endows them with some special privileges at all times. The regulations only give them these rights when actually engaged in the process of fishing. They don't give them special rights when they are simply traveling to or from the fishing grounds, but you would never know that from observing them.

Pleasure boaters have not been much better. Since this is supposidly a thread on anchoring etiquette I'll relate a story that happened to me a couple of days ago. I was in a harbor up here in Maine and was in the process of anchoring. The bottom was a bit muddy and I was having a bit of a problem getting my anchor to set. While on my second effort at putting the anchor down another boat entered the harbor a couple of hundred yards to my port. I had two people on the bow putting out my rode and was clearly backing up. There was at least a 1/4 mile of open water to my stern, by the the guy in the other boat turns towards me as I'm backing down on my anchor and comes right at my stern. I had to put the boat in forward to stop from hitting him as he passed less than ten feet off my stern. He waved and smiled as I asked him if he was born stupid or if they gave special stupid training around here. His smile changed to a look of puzzlement as I'm sure he had no idea that he had caused any problem at all. By the way it was after labor day and I was the only boat in this small harbor before the other guy showed up so it wasn't like he had no room to maneuver well beyond my stern.
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Old 09-09-2012, 16:35   #205
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
Jackdale will no doubt remember this event where a pleasure boat under sail with 4 aboard elected to pass astern of a tugboat in the inner Staits of Juan de Fuca. I believe it was around dusk as the commercial tug had a light array clearly indicating he was under tow. The sailboat cleared the stern of the tug without incident until her keel caught the towline and was run over by the barge in tow. There may have been one survivor but there was also significant loss of life aboard the sailboat. Thr resultant inquiry made headlines in the Pacific northwest when it occurred.
When arguing over who has right of way and which colregs are in play it is wise to remember that it is everyones duty at anchor or underway to avoid collision either through commission or ommission of their actions. Capt Phil
Hi Phil - I am trying to recall that one. I do remember this one.

Quote:
The tug Jose Narvaez was outbound from Vancouver harbour, at night, towing the coal-laden barge Texada B.C. on a 274 m cable towline. The operator of the pleasure craft Sunboy did not realize that they were approaching a tug/tow combination and passed between the tug and the barge. The propellers of the Sunboy became fouled in the towline, and the pleasure craft was struck by the on-coming barge, and capsized. As a result, some people were thrown into the water and others were trapped within the vessel's enclosed spaces. Of the 14 people who had been on board the Sunboy, nine were rescued and survived, four drowned and one remains missing and is presumed drowned.
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Old 09-09-2012, 16:55   #206
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
"
Originally Posted by capta
A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive."


Did you see the drubbing I got for saying that?


Pleasure craft



Commercial vessel

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Old 10-09-2012, 02:21   #207
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Captain Bill said it most succinctly. I'll add, practice good seamanship, a skill that frequently is woefully missing when at sea.
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