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Old 01-09-2012, 19:03   #181
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Rules are rules. But Collisions are Collisions !! Now I know the rules, but I will break them anytime it will keep me from haveing a collision!! now thats common sense!! anything else IS STUPID ! and stupid is a lifelong thing, only cured by death !! In my 74 years of living, Ive seen a bunch of folks sink or damage there vessels, and the biggest reason for these events was a stupid mistake ! knowalge of the rules would have had been of very little use in most of these cases !! Just like anchoring , if ya open your eyes, and figure out what ya need to do to be safe and not infringe on another boats space, you wont have to many problems !but if ya don't look and think ! ya sure are gonna have a problem ! no matter what ya do ya have to think a little to be safe !! Thats my 2 cents
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Old 01-09-2012, 20:47   #182
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

In fact, its a rule that if you need to break a rule to avoid a collision then you should do it.

Does anyone really need to be told this? If so, please stay on land.
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Old 01-09-2012, 22:15   #183
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
most bays i have sailed have vhf net in am--0800 or 0830 on ch 22 or 68.
there are also cruising nets via ssb.
lots of good info.

many folks in anchoring situations keep radio on for emergency use.

big ships dont usually come thru the anchorages in which i have anchored .

If half the boats out there drifted as much as this topic has, we'd all be in a lot of trouble!
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:43   #184
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
I have had very few issues with commercial boats. I can maneuver much easier. Courtesy is I shift a little stay out of the channel when possible . When I have called commercial vessels on the radio they have been professional and sometimes offered to change direction. My approach has been x vessel im on this heading and high up in the wind . Willing to tack but need your intentions.X boat says " Captain we see you were going a few degrees east and should pass you. Thanks"
Sabray" thanks you have a good trip out". Really pretty easy unless your sailing with a copy of regs in your lap and stressed out.
I found this to be the best answer of how to deal with commercial traffic.
When in doubt, Communicate!!!!! They Do monitor they're vhf radios unlike many recreational craft.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:28   #185
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

How loud is everyone's foghorns? I was considering installing a railway horn...powered by compressed air tank. Foredeck crew get free earplugs and a warning when about to sound. Must prevent stains on the deck.....
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:58   #186
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
If half the boats out there drifted as much as this topic has, we'd all be in a lot of trouble!
just trying to get back onto the anchoring topic, as it was presented. so why pick my post as a direct example of thread drift?? wasnt a right of way/stand on vessel thread--originally was an anchoring etiquette thread--
the only collisions in anchorage have not been performed by the anchored.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:00   #187
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I found this to be the best answer of how to deal with commercial traffic.
When in doubt, Communicate!!!!! They Do monitor they're vhf radios unlike many recreational craft.

"I have had very few issues with commercial boats. I can maneuver much easier."

Thank you for saying that -- I was jumped multiple times for saying that.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:08   #188
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
just trying to get back onto the anchoring topic, as it was presented. so why pick my post as a direct example of thread drift?? wasnt a right of way/stand on vessel thread--originally was an anchoring etiquette thread--
the only collisions in anchorage have not been performed by the anchored.

"
Originally Posted by Rakuflames
If half the boats out there drifted as much as this topic has, we'd all be in a lot of trouble!
(Zeehag) just trying to get back onto the anchoring topic, as it was presented. so why pick my post as a direct example of thread drift?? wasnt a right of way/stand on vessel thread--originally was an anchoring etiquette thread--
the only collisions in anchorage have not been performed by the anchored. "

Zeehag, please re-read what I posted up there. I wasn't picking on your post. I was agreeing with you! NOWHERE does my response mention you as being part of topic drift. You commented on the topic drift, and I AGREED with you, that this topic has drifted pretty extremely.

I was very specifically talking about the topic drift here (which I have contributed to, but to my recollection, not you) -- not that you had caused or helped cause it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:48   #189
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
I found this to be the best answer of how to deal with commercial traffic.
When in doubt, Communicate!!!!! They Do monitor they're vhf radios unlike many recreational craft.
No doubt communication by VHF can be very helpful, sometimes.

However, a radio is no substitute for knowing the colregs, and following them carefully.

Furthermore, radio communications can sometimes do more harm than good. In fact, the MCA (the UK maritime authority) published a whole paper on the dangers of using VHF in collision avoidance situations, worth reading: http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn167.pdf

The summary of that paper is:

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision avoidance, the provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost . . . "

The dangers identified by the MCA are:

1. Sometimes hard to identify the vessel you are at risk of collision with; risk of misunderstandings because you are talking to the wrong ship.

2. Time and attention is wasted trying to communicate on VHF, which should be better spent on situational awareness and making the correct maneuver.

The MCA paper quotes a judge in a collision case as saying:

"I must repeat, in the hope that it will achieve some publicity, what I have said on previous occasions, that any attempt to use VHF to agree the manner of passing is fraught with the danger of misunderstanding. Marine Superintendents would be well advised to prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct their officers to comply with the Collision Regulations."

See also:

Law & Sea | Use of VHF in Collision Avoidance
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:12   #190
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

this has been a kind of werid thread, but I've noticed once any rule is mentioned in a thread the thread becomes a rule thread and somehow this is a battle to be won

Now back to topic:

Everyone knows that anchoring is like being a fish in a school of fish where the fish wants to all get together. And of course a school of fish attracts predators.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:24   #191
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
this has been a kind of werid thread, but I've noticed once any rule is mentioned in a thread the thread becomes a rule thread and somehow this is a battle to be won

Now back to topic:

Everyone knows that anchoring is like being a fish in a school of fish where the fish wants to all get together. And of course a school of fish attracts predators.

I think it's the sailing version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

When it comes to anchoring etiquette we're all singing to the choir.
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:02   #192
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think it's the sailing version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

When it comes to anchoring etiquette we're all singing to the choir.
But to acheive harmony the Choir needs a Hymn sheet - otherwise it's only "obvious" what the choir should be singing and how. and likely as many variations of "obvious" as their are Choir Members .
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:14   #193
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Dockhead (still with the thread drift)

One use of a VHF radio that many pleasure vessel operators neglect is listening to Vessel Traffic Services when prudent to do so. This was noted in a finding be the Canadian Traffic Safety Board after a collision between a ferry and a pleasure craft in the vicinity of a ferry terminal.

Quote:
As a pleasure yacht that is less than 30 metres in length, the Star Ruby was not required to, and did not participate in the Vessel Traffic Services (VTS) scheme controlled by Victoria MCTS. Few recreational boaters are in the habit of monitoring the VHF traffic channels. The current practice by some pleasure craft operators of not monitoring MCTS working frequencies deprives them of valuable navigational information, including traffic movement, on which sound navigational decisions can be based.
Transportation Safety Board | Home

At night I monitor VTS and let them know I am "out there." I have had occasion to converse with other traffic to clarify intentions.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:15   #194
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No doubt communication by VHF can be very helpful, sometimes.

However, a radio is no substitute for knowing the colregs, and following them carefully.

Furthermore, radio communications can sometimes do more harm than good. In fact, the MCA (the UK maritime authority) published a whole paper on the dangers of using VHF in collision avoidance situations, worth reading: http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn167.pdf
It is funny you keep mentioning the COLREGS, but fail to understand that International Rule 5 "Lookout", means keeping an active lookout, including ALL Eletronic Devices.

Courts have held that failing to use these electronic devices can lay the foundation that there was not a proper lookout and thus ultimately hold the Watch Officer responsible for a collision.

Your reasoning that talking on a VHF radio, instead of taking immedite action is valid if you are in immenant danger. Anyone follish enough to be talking on the radio instead of manuvering when their vessel is immenent damger should a probably lose their license.

Outside of that, I believe that Bridge to Bridge Communication between vessels on VHF radios, especially to discuss intentions at a distance to take action wtihout endangering the vessel or crew is predent seamanship and therefore compling with Rule 5.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:30   #195
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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It is funny you keep mentioning the COLREGS, but fail to understand that International Rule 5 "Lookout", means keeping an active lookout, including ALL Eletronic Devices.

Courts have held that failing to use these electronic devices can lay the foundation that there was not a proper lookout and thus ultimately hold the Watch Officer responsible for a collision.

Your reasoning that talking on a VHF radio, instead of taking immedite action is valid if you are in immenant danger. Anyone follish enough to be talking on the radio instead of manuvering when their vessel is immenent damger should a probably lose their license.

Outside of that, I believe that Bridge to Bridge Communication between vessels on VHF radios, especially to discuss intentions at a distance to take action wtihout endangering the vessel or crew is predent seamanship and therefore compling with Rule 5.
I never said anything about not keeping a radio watch. You deeply misunderstand what I was trying to say. Of course everyone should keep a radio watch, and we are required to do so. It's elementary seamanship.

And furthermore, I am not advising anyone to never use the VHF to discuss crossing situations. On the contrary, I said specifically that it can be useful. In fact, I always use the radio in a crossing situation where I am the stand-on vessel and I am not sure whether the ship sees me or intends to maneuver (but if I can identify the vessel in order to hail her). If you are the stand-on vessel and you decide that you had better maneuver anyway -- as you are required to do by the Colregs if it seems necessary to avoid a collision -- then I think it makes sense to warn the other vessel that you are doing so, so that he does not assume that you are holding course and speed as you would otherwise be required to do. But such a radio call has to be done in plenty of time, and yet you need to be able to read the vessel's name in order to hail her. Obviously that won't work at night if you don't have AIS. And I would only make such a radio call after I am already doing what the Colregs required -- as the stand-on vessel, holding course and speed to allow the other vessel to work out a manuever.

What is dangerous is the idea that instead of taking decisive action required by the Colregs, and taking it in time, that you should just hail the other vessel and just start chatting about how to maneuver. This is a mistake and it causes collisions. And yes, a lot of people do that, even professional mariners. Someone here even suggested "just communicate!". That was what moved me to post about this. It's really important to know what you're supposed to do, and be able to do it decisively, and without chatting about it. "Just communicating" is not nearly enough.

Which, I say again, does not mean don't listen to your radio!!
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