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Old 01-09-2012, 00:57   #166
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Re: Anchored vessels etiquet

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Originally Posted by nautical62 View Post
Okay - according to your colreg book, what regulations do you feel you can prove were violated?

You didn't actually see the trawler snag your anchor line. You saw and felt nothing. All the anchor alarm proves is that you dragged anchor. You state the other boats passing in front of you did not snag your anchor line, you were not in a collision, did not need to take an evasive action. You did not witness any other collision or see anyone else take evasive action to avoid a collision. You and one boat signaled to pass to starboard. Another boat passed port to port as per custom, again with no evasive action required. You stated the boat maintained it's course, which is standard.

I most certainly prefer quiet places to anchor, and don't like power boats buzzing around. I've had similar experiences in SE Florida at anchor and in channels. I understand your frustration, and I understand your feelings that people could have been more safety conscious.

You mentioned wanting to report regulation violations. What is not clear to me is specifically what regulations you believe were violated and what real evidence you have in support of such violations. (Personally, even when someone snagged my anchor rode and I literally had to go unhook them from my rode, I can't image reporting them.)

You expressed a worry about your rode being caught, and I think a few people have provided some good recommendations about how to reduce that risk and thus reduce the worry.
You are refererring to the CFR like they are the only rules a boater has to follow... Yes federal regulations do apply, but also State and Local laws apply... Not to mention Admiralty Law in civil matters.

If there is no speed limit set by the State specifically addressing anchored vessels, you can always refer to Admiralty Law. Vessels are responsible for their wakes and if they cause injury they will be held civilly repsonsible by the Courts. Here is a link to Farwell's Book addressing legal responsiblity for wakes caused by your vessel.

Then again, under most state maritime laws you are required to slow when passing an anchored vessel. In California, the law speciffically states 200 feet.

Someone mentioned that Texas law only applies to jet skis, but I suspect he didn't look under the Wreckless Boating Laws, which specifically address speeding around anchored or moored vessels, which in part is listed below:


Operating at speeds that are not reasonable and prudent based on boating traffic, weather conditions, visibility, or other potential hazards. If no limits are posted, you should operate a vessel so that it does not endanger others and so that it can be stopped safely.

Causing damage to a person or property with a vessel’s wake in posted “No Wake” areas. In these areas, you should operate a vessel slowly so that it does not throw a wake. In addition, you should reduce your speed when passing:
  • Near a swimming area
  • Close to a shoreline
  • Another vessel where people are fishing, water-skiing, diving, or anchored
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Old 01-09-2012, 13:49   #167
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Why is it the freighter cannot see the sail boat?. Biggest ship I worked was as Mate on a 520,000 tonne ULCC, and had no problem seeing other vessels, including small boats. Up in the PG during the Iraq/Iran war, we spent a lot of time seeing small boats, I can still visualize the one that popped half a dozen RPG's into us.

IF I was a judging a maritime case, and the freighters defense was that they did not see the small boat they ran down, then I might just question the quality of their watchkeeping.
Plenty of ships around the UK have been held partly to blame for running down fishing boats, I dont think there is any excuse for "I did not see them"

"Why is it the freighter cannot see the sail boat?"

I explained that, Nigel, and you've taken it out of context. My much more detailed statement involved visibility when close to big ships. The closer you are to them, the more likely they can't see you. A collision, what we're all trying to avoid, is about as close as it gets.

Of course they were found liable for hitting fishing boats. Go read the regs again.

There IS an excuse for "I did not see them." I've explained that twice now. Methinks you just want to argue?
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Old 01-09-2012, 13:50   #168
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I think you need top provide some evidence for this.

This is a case of a commercial vessel colliding with a sail boat.

Transportation Safety Board | Home

Being "commercial" was not relevant.

Nor was it relevant in the case of the Ouzo

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ile=/Ouzo_.pdf

You can't make generalities from specific examples. Finding examples that do not mirror what I said proves nothing.
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Old 01-09-2012, 13:52   #169
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

PS I'm sorry but your links did not take me to specific examples. It doesn't really matter whether you agree with me or not. What matters that we all here use our common sense. That isn't the "law" but it will prevent accidents.
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Old 01-09-2012, 14:15   #170
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

the links were specific examples.

jeremiasson raised another point--however, after the uss coles incident more regulations were made involving merchant ships and navy ships and safety zones. is interesting reading. is not a state enforcement item, but a federal one.
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Old 01-09-2012, 14:53   #171
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
"Why is it the freighter cannot see the sail boat?"

I explained that, Nigel, and you've taken it out of context. My much more detailed statement involved visibility when close to big ships. The closer you are to them, the more likely they can't see you. A collision, what we're all trying to avoid, is about as close as it gets.

Of course they were found liable for hitting fishing boats. Go read the regs again.

There IS an excuse for "I did not see them." I've explained that twice now. Methinks you just want to argue?

Hi Rakuflames

OK, first, I dont think I need to read the Colregs again. Many years ago after much hard work, and sacrificing hard earned cash, I obtained my Master Mariners Foreign Going Certificate.
For that, I had to have a thorough understanding of the regulations, and was examined by (at that time ) the Dept. of Transport. This is the same dept. who would likely remove that certificate if I made a mistake.
I am currently master of a high tech anchor handling tug, with a rebuild value of over $70 million, and my employer for the last 15 years also expects me to have a thorough understanding, of amongst other things, the Colregs

Below is the SOLAS requirements for bridge visibility
1.1 The view of the sea surface from the conning position shall not be obscured by more than two ship lengths, or 500 m, whichever is the less, forward of the bow to 10° on either side under all conditions of draught, trim and deck cargo;
1.2 No blind sector caused by cargo, cargo gear or other obstructions outside of the wheelhouse forward of the beam which obstructs the view of the sea surface as seen from the conning position, shall exceed 10°. The total arc of blind sectors shall not exceed 20°. The clear sectors between blind sectors shall be at least 5°. However, in the view described in .1, each individual blind sector shall not exceed 5°;
1.3 The horizontal field of vision from the conning position shall extend over an arc of not less than 225°, that is from right ahead to not less than 22.5°, abaft the beam on either side of the ship;
1.4 From each bridge wing the horizontal field of vision shall extend over an arc at least 225°, that is from at least 45° on the opposite bow through right ahead and then from right ahead to right astern through 180° on the same side of the ship;
If this commercial vessel has not spotted you outside that 500m distance, then they are not keeping a look out. Within this 500m then it is perfectly acceptable that the sailing vessel, as the stand on vessel shall take action to avoid collision, but keep in mind Rule 17 of the Colregs, and it is also worth understanding Rule 8, especially Para (f)

I've been skipper on commercial vessels for close to 25 years, so think I have a bit of experience, like they say around my neck of the woods, I did'nt float down the River Mersey on a water biscuit

And no, I dont want to argue, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Safe sailing.
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Old 01-09-2012, 14:59   #172
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Hi Rakuflames

OK, first, I dont think I need to read the Colregs again. Many years ago after much hard work, and sacrificing hard earned cash, I obtained my Master Mariners Foreign Going Certificate.
For that, I had to have a thorough understanding of the regulations, and was examined by (at that time ) the Dept. of Transport. This is the same dept. who would likely remove that certificate if I made a mistake.
I am currently master of a high tech anchor handling tug, with a rebuild value of over $70 million, and my employer for the last 15 years also expects me to have a thorough understanding, of amongst other things, the Colregs

Below is the SOLAS requirements for bridge visibility
1.1 The view of the sea surface from the conning position shall not be obscured by more than two ship lengths, or 500 m, whichever is the less, forward of the bow to 10° on either side under all conditions of draught, trim and deck cargo;
1.2 No blind sector caused by cargo, cargo gear or other obstructions outside of the wheelhouse forward of the beam which obstructs the view of the sea surface as seen from the conning position, shall exceed 10°. The total arc of blind sectors shall not exceed 20°. The clear sectors between blind sectors shall be at least 5°. However, in the view described in .1, each individual blind sector shall not exceed 5°;
1.3 The horizontal field of vision from the conning position shall extend over an arc of not less than 225°, that is from right ahead to not less than 22.5°, abaft the beam on either side of the ship;
1.4 From each bridge wing the horizontal field of vision shall extend over an arc at least 225°, that is from at least 45° on the opposite bow through right ahead and then from right ahead to right astern through 180° on the same side of the ship;
If this commercial vessel has not spotted you outside that 500m distance, then they are not keeping a look out. Within this 500m then it is perfectly acceptable that the sailing vessel, as the stand on vessel shall take action to avoid collision, but keep in mind Rule 17 of the Colregs, and it is also worth understanding Rule 8, especially Para (f)

I've been skipper on commercial vessels for close to 25 years, so think I have a bit of experience, like they say around my neck of the woods, I did'nt float down the River Mersey on a water biscuit

And no, I dont want to argue, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Safe sailing.
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Old 01-09-2012, 15:49   #173
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Hi Rakuflames

OK, first, I dont think I need to read the Colregs again. Many years ago after much hard work, and sacrificing hard earned cash, I obtained my Master Mariners Foreign Going Certificate.
For that, I had to have a thorough understanding of the regulations, and was examined by (at that time ) the Dept. of Transport. This is the same dept. who would likely remove that certificate if I made a mistake.
I am currently master of a high tech anchor handling tug, with a rebuild value of over $70 million, and my employer for the last 15 years also expects me to have a thorough understanding, of amongst other things, the Colregs

Below is the SOLAS requirements for bridge visibility
1.1 The view of the sea surface from the conning position shall not be obscured by more than two ship lengths, or 500 m, whichever is the less, forward of the bow to 10° on either side under all conditions of draught, trim and deck cargo;
1.2 No blind sector caused by cargo, cargo gear or other obstructions outside of the wheelhouse forward of the beam which obstructs the view of the sea surface as seen from the conning position, shall exceed 10°. The total arc of blind sectors shall not exceed 20°. The clear sectors between blind sectors shall be at least 5°. However, in the view described in .1, each individual blind sector shall not exceed 5°;
1.3 The horizontal field of vision from the conning position shall extend over an arc of not less than 225°, that is from right ahead to not less than 22.5°, abaft the beam on either side of the ship;
1.4 From each bridge wing the horizontal field of vision shall extend over an arc at least 225°, that is from at least 45° on the opposite bow through right ahead and then from right ahead to right astern through 180° on the same side of the ship;
If this commercial vessel has not spotted you outside that 500m distance, then they are not keeping a look out. Within this 500m then it is perfectly acceptable that the sailing vessel, as the stand on vessel shall take action to avoid collision, but keep in mind Rule 17 of the Colregs, and it is also worth understanding Rule 8, especially Para (f)

I've been skipper on commercial vessels for close to 25 years, so think I have a bit of experience, like they say around my neck of the woods, I did'nt float down the River Mersey on a water biscuit

And no, I dont want to argue, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Safe sailing.

It all sounds really good until you realize just how big a 5 degree arc can be on a big ship.

No one has questioned your knowledge, and if you can't see yourself as "right" without sneering at other people ... that's not my problem.

The point of what I have been taught is not that you would be in the "wrong" but that big boats have their limitations just as small boats have theirs. As Sancho says in a play, "Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it's going to be bad for the pitcher."

So of course we were taught from two different perspectives. I think you misinterpreted what i was saying to mean that it would be your fault if you hit some little sailboat.

No, it would be the sailboat's fault for not respecting both your size and your limitations.

Instead, you've taken what I've said out of context, truncated it, and made up examples that didn't fit what I said. Whatever.
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Old 01-09-2012, 15:54   #174
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I have had very few issues with commercial boats. I can maneuver much easier. Courtesy is I shift a little stay out of the channel when possible . When I have called commercial vessels on the radio they have been professional and sometimes offered to change direction. My approach has been x vessel im on this heading and high up in the wind . Willing to tack but need your intentions.X boat says " Captain we see you were going a few degrees east and should pass you. Thanks"
Sabray" thanks you have a good trip out". Really pretty easy unless your sailing with a copy of regs in your lap and stressed out.
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Old 01-09-2012, 16:06   #175
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Anyway...

Here's some of our anchoring methods/protocols/etiquette in no particular order:

1. Try to give everyone as much room as possible.

2. Don't stare.

3. Smile if you make eye contact with others.

4. Set your hook well, not only for your protection but for everyone's peace of mind.

5. Don't run a generator after sunset.

6. If you are anchoring in an already-crowded anchorage, try not to anchor right in front of somebody if at all possible. They might stress about you dragging.

7. If someone else is doing something that makes you uncomfortable, give them time to try to figure it out themselves, without staring or giving mean looks. Most of the time people figure out for themselves that they are too close, etc.

8. If you are still uncomfortable with the situation, move instead of demanding the other person move.

9. Don't forget to relax.

10. Help out others if possible.

That's about all for now...

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Old 01-09-2012, 16:36   #176
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

How widespread is the practise of radio nets in anchorages, or local areas? Or is the everyman an island rule predominant?
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Old 01-09-2012, 16:54   #177
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

And people wonder why I use all chain.....with a 60 lb CQR....... LOL!

Forrest Gump said: Stupid is as stupid does.

Ugly people can get plastic surgery, fat people can lose weight, but you cannot fix "stupid"....

But in the end....a "prudent mariner" does whatever necessary to avoid a collision...or other problems involving other boats..... Sometimes it might rankle the ego...but it means a lot less paperwork, angst, breathalyzer tests, etc...maybe even court time, jail time, financial ruin...

Face it: Stoopid peeple do stoopid stuff!
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Old 01-09-2012, 17:31   #178
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Gump jumped overboard from a moving vessel, causing it to crash into a dock...
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Old 01-09-2012, 18:35   #179
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

While it may make common sense to treat large ships so. It's is not IN The COLREGS. professional masters will tell you the number one thing they dislike about leisure craft is their unpredictability. So if you discuss to break the COLREGS ( or manoeuvre early ) even if you are the stand on vessel. Ensure you make an early and extremely obvious turn

Dave
Friday afternoon we had pursuit races. Pursuit races start the boats at different times based on HC so in theory everyone finishes at the same time. We started at 5:13 as we are a high handicapper. Very light conditions but not terrible.

We were watching carefully for channel traffic as these can really screw up a race. Our marks actually cross the channel at an oblique angle. There were two ships and a barge tow as factors.

Any way around the top mark and headed back a barge on tow became a factor. Bear away, stay left and be downwind of him? Or close haul and cross him early. We were in good shape in the race so bearing away could be / would be slower.

We made an "early" command decision to cross. I advised the skipper the heading change should be positive and noticeable. We close hauled (about 20 degrees to starboard) and were getting about 4 kts.

The barge skipper gave one blast -was he mad at us or did the blast mean something different. I know the answer...

He changed course to starboard a bit and the cross was no drama.

We won the race BTW.
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Old 01-09-2012, 19:01   #180
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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How widespread is the practise of radio nets in anchorages, or local areas? Or is the everyman an island rule predominant?
most bays i have sailed have vhf net in am--0800 or 0830 on ch 22 or 68.
there are also cruising nets via ssb.
lots of good info.

many folks in anchoring situations keep radio on for emergency use.

big ships dont usually come thru the anchorages in which i have anchored .
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