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Old 24-08-2012, 01:19   #136
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Rakuflames

if a vessel is constrained by draft or maneuverability, it is required to show its situation via either day or night signals. in the absence of such signals other vessels should presume the ship is under command, and restricted in its ability to maneuver. those are the colregs and you might want reread them if necessary

having said that the colregs also require all vessels to exhibit good seamanship. so if s supertanker is bearing down on you and you are in an adequately maneuverable craft, you should take evasive action to avoid a collision, even if you are the stand on vessel. the colregs also say that any action you take should be taken early enough and clearly signal you intent to the other party

soory but you are wrong

some commercial vessels are highly maneuverable and these would generally get out of your way.

the real answer here is good seamanship. you better believe i'll skeedaddle out of a supertankers way - he can't stop or evade. but i do it because i'm exhibiting good seamanship - which is what the colregs require me to do
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Old 24-08-2012, 02:07   #137
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
This is false, and actually dangerous advice. "Just get out of the way of commercial vessels" is not always the right thing to do, and such a "rule" is not nearly enough knowledge for a sailor who shares the sea with large vessels. Everyone should read and understand the Colregs. There is no such concept as a "commercial vessel" in the Colregs -- the fact that our vessels are recreational has no significance whatsoever in the Colregs. The Colregs not only allow us to stand on in some situations, they actually require it -- require us to hold course and speed so that the other vessel knows how to maneuver out of the situation.

Now, of course, those of us sailing smaller, shallower draft, and more maneuverable vessels must as a matter of general good seamanship do our best to avoid Colregs situations with larger vessels in the first place. We also must know that we must not stand on if the give-way vessel doesn't see us or doesn't maneuver. Third -- we are not the stand-on vessel in encounters with vessels (commercial or otherwise) restricted by draft and navigating in a channel, or restricted in maneuverability as defined by the Colregs, and a number of other situations. But these things are not at all the same as to simply say "don't ever interfere with a commercial vessel".
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Old 24-08-2012, 02:22   #138
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You miss the point. There are times when you as the smaller boat should stand on and correctly apply the rules. Equally you do not stand on into danger. , or as its known, the rule of gross tonnage. The bit I was countering the absurd notion that freighters or cruise liners have some sort of right , by being restricted , which they are not , in law or the COLREGS.

There are many that say the law of gross tonnage is wrong. And hat whatever the relative sizes the COLREGS should be followed as it is what the other party expects. The incident related between the sailboat under power and the power illustrate the situation where one party does not properly apply the rules.

Equally there are situations such as the English channel , where the get the hell outa there can't apply, you have to cross and a knowledge of the rules is very useful.

As to thread drift, been on CF long then !!!
Dave
This is exactly right.

The statement "there is no such thing as 'right of way' at sea" -- is true. But it does not mean what some people think it does. What it means is that the Colregs define a "stand-on" vessel and a "give way" vessel for a different purpose, than what "right of way" means on roads. On the roads, the driver with the "right of way" can proceed with impunity -- it is entirely the responsibility of the other driver to stay out of the way.

At sea, being the "stand-on" vessel means something quite different. It does not mean that you can proceed with impunity. It means that you are expected to hold your course and speed, at least for a while, so that the other helmsman can work out the correct maneuver to resolve the situation, and initiate that maneuver. If there were no such thing as a "stand-on" and "give-way" vessel, then both helmsmen would maneuver without knowing what the other is doing, and this causes collisions.

And so once a sailor has either failed to avoid a crossing situation, or where there was no way to avoid it, then you must know when you are supposed to stand-on, in order to give the ship the chance to manuever. And when you should stop standing-on (the ship doesn't maneuver or doesn't see you). Maybe many of us don't encounter ships in open water, but it is an everyday occurrence in busy sea lanes like the English Channel -- crossing situations are absolutely unavoidable on an average Channel crossing, usually multiple crossing situations, and sometimes even several potential close quarters situations simultaneously. Someone once wrote that sailing across the English Channel is like being a squirrel running across a busy motorway

Besides knowing when to give way and when to stand on, sailors need to know what maneuvers are required in what situations. For example, if you encounter another vessel head-on, you must turn to starboard, and not to port, unless you agree ahead of time with the other vessel. In UK waters, where people are accustomed to driving on the left side of the road, and turning their cars to port, as it were, in a head-on situation, a lot of accidents occur because skippers of recreational boats don't understand that you are supposed to turn to starboard to maneuver to pass red-to-red.
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Old 24-08-2012, 03:19   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is certainly not international law nor anywhere near it.

However , this is good common sense advice, whatever the law says. I put it another way "Never stand on into danger"

Dave
And we come full circle to the non-rule of "the rule of gross tonnage" again as a guiding principle of common sense application of colregs
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Old 24-08-2012, 10:41   #140
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Having just towed a lay barge of some 180m in length up river to the port of Rotterdam, I was really impressed how all the boats,ships, barges on the river acted. Everyone knew what they were meant to do, it was busy with pleasure boats, being a Friday afternoon, and at no time did I ever feel the need to get on the radio or lean on the whistle. Made for a pleasant river passage.
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Old 24-08-2012, 10:56   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor

And we come full circle to the non-rule of "the rule of gross tonnage" again as a guiding principle of common sense application of colregs
This isn't a non-rule. Not standing on when it becomes clear the other party isn't giving way is explicitly in the colregs
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Old 24-08-2012, 13:23   #142
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
A lot of you are still missing the point; do not think in terms of "right of way" even here in a forum. There needs to be a complete overhaul of thought.
As a professional captain who at times has operated towing/pushing tugs, freighters and inspected passenger carrying vessels in various harbors, bays and rivers of the US, I can assure those of you who have sails up and motor off, you have no business interfering with the operations of any commercial vessel. Whether you are in a confined channel, whether the commercial vessel is constrained by their draft or not, you must keep clear. Bluntly put; you may not interfere with the operations of any commercial vessel while you are on a pleasure craft. If you do not believe me ask a coastie.
So forget trying to figure out who's the stand on vessel and give that commercial vessel a wide berth and stay alive.
Obviously the US of A is a law unto themselves on many things - but got to remember that this is an international forum and therefore discussions do cover stuff that happens off the edge of the map .

I have zero first hand knowledge of WTF folks do in the US and have no plans to ever find out - but sounds like you are confusing Collision Regs with local by-laws / local rules (real legal ones, not just the stuff made up by the locals!).....in which case commercial shipping having priority / right of way / being able to use the rule of tonnage would be correct. But depends what the local rules say.

Whether or not local rules apply I could easily envisage circumstances where the Captain of a large commercial vessel would (over) assume that someone on a pleasure would not be that stupid..........by intentionaly bringing themselves into a situation where they were claiming "right of way", without thinking of the consequences to themselves if they are wrong. or the Commercial ship made a mistake. or the Capt didn't give a sh#t (it happens in every other line of work) or the laws of physics did not allow the ship to comply .

Most times I work on the "rule of polite" (and the rule of fear ) - as someone working for a living does (in my book) get more consideration from me not seeking to make their job harder simply because I can.
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Old 24-08-2012, 13:47   #143
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

All the regs be darned !! just don't act STUPID !! it's so much easier to give way to a LARGE vessel in a passing situation!! why worry about right of way when if ya get run over by a large commercial vessel ya might could lose your vessel and your life !! it's great to know ALL the rules but the thing is most of the time the BIG Boat is still the big boat !! and if ya mess up you might never get the chance to read Chapmans or the Col Regs !! use what god gave ya a mind ! and keep away from larger traffic in what ever way you have to ! even if it means you THINK you are in the right !! as there will be no right or wrong ! there will just be Trouble and a Insurence Claim and maybe a Court case !! Im just saying use your head and don't start quoteing Law and regulations !! cus they wont help the situation! only common sense will help and if ya don't have that well then you are probly just an accident waiting to happen !!! How the heck did we get all these sailors with so much knowage of the LAW ??? Ive sailed the waters that all this crap started over and never had a problem one with any commerical traffic!! In fact I don't think Ive ever had a prob with that type of vessels!! but Ive sure had trouble with Private vessels all over the place !! give me Tugs and tows and Cruise ships ect !! I know what they are gonna do ! but the guy in the Big power boat or the sailer in his 30ft sail boat that thinks hes on the port tack and has somesort of right of way is a heck of a lot more trouble !! Just my 2 cents
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Old 24-08-2012, 19:42   #144
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

I don't really want to beat a dead horse. I think everybody's given their view three or four times. However, I think that there is some value in the actual wording of the regulations, so I thought I'd quote them here for those who don't want to look them up.

My legal obligation as a skipper can be summarized as "stand on, but don't stand on long enough to endanger my vessel." The actual rule is:
Quote:
Rule 17

Action by Stand-on Vessel

(a)

(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in accordance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.
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Old 24-08-2012, 22:02   #145
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

Geesh!
When will we get back to ANCHORED etiquette?
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Old 24-08-2012, 22:29   #146
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Geesh!
When will we get back to ANCHORED etiquette?
OK

Just found this

Quote:
ANCHORING RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES...
This afternoon I had the pleasure to have a sailboat anchored on my starboard and we got a sudden surge of wind and our scope were only approximately 50 feet appart.

I did not mind as I was standing watch in any event.

When the weather calmed down I decided to do a little research on anchoring rights as this situation will certainly occur. Here what I found:

Since anchors are as important to boats as brakes are to automobiles here is
what to do if someone anchors too close to you for comfort:

The first boat to anchor has certain rights over others who later anchor nearby.

These rights spring from common courtesy and practical seamanship, but they are also backed up by law.

A boat already anchored must be given room to swing freely, and she must also be allowed maneuvering room if she wishes to depart.

This can mean significant room in the case of an engineless sailboat.

If you, as first boat in the anchorage, notice another boat attempting to anchor too close to you, your first responsibility is to inform the newcomer of the possibility of fouling.

Decision No. 124-5861 (1956) in U.S. Admiralty case law states: ďA vessel shall be found at fault if it . . . anchors so close to another vessel as to foul her when swinging . . . (and/or) fails to shift anchorage when dragging dangerously close to another anchored vessel.
Furthermore, the vessel that anchored first SHALL warn the one who anchored last that the berth chosen will foul the formerís berth.
Note, however, that if you start to drag anchor and threaten to collide with another vessel, it doesnít matter that you anchored first.


A dragging boat MUST take immediate action to avoid collision and find a new berth.

Source: McGraw-Hill Boating Encyclopedia: Anchoring Rights : Anchoring Rights: Information from Answers.com

As a prudent person I did put 4 fenders in case we would have a collision...

This is a lesson learned for me as next time I will politely inform the captain that:

Under the United States admiralty law (or maritime law), it is my first responsibility to inform the master of a Vessel that his vessel shall be found at fault if he anchors so close to my vessel as to foul her when swinging.
REAL MOUNTIE's Adventures * Les Aventures du REAL MOUNTIE: ANCHORING RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES...

The highlighted section has some interesting twists.
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Old 30-08-2012, 18:46   #147
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Back to anchoring... Two weeks ago the wife and I were out at the islands, and since I still haven't fixed the depth sounder we were back to our old digs. It was crowded, so we dropped at the end of the line, about half again as far from the next boat as he was from his neighbor. It was all good, until this dude showed up and decided he needed to be between us. He had a crap Danforth knockoff on the bow with like 10' of chain. So he drops his stern anchor just behind me and motors up. I thought he was going to cross my rode for sure. Luckily (I guess) he **totally** short scoped it because he ran out of stern rode before he got anywhere near my rode.

I was a bit torqued, and couldn't figure out why in the hell, with all the available space on the other side, he had to drop right between both of us.

Right up till he tossed in the dink and motored over to the next boat, picked those folks up and went to the next boat for drinks. Apparently there were five or more boats that were buddy boating, and he was late freight. In my attempt to give myself space, I just gave him enough room to stick himself in there with his buddies. I still didn't like it, but I understand that he wanted to be nearer his mates.

JRM

-- we won't talk about the CIMI tall ship that decided to use their big dink to wakeboard at 6:am...
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Old 30-08-2012, 18:56   #148
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry what " applied law". Court judgements are not modifications to the COLREGS. On the high seas outside territorial waters what law do you refer to. The COLREGS are international law by treaty. The assigning of blame occurs because typically nether side complied fully. Not that the smaller boat is intrinsically in the wrong.


Where have you Seen that cruise liners are restricted. ( outside of fairways or shallows. ) I've yet to see one indicate so by day shape or lights.
I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about here.

And I think it just as possible that you have read up on this instead of actually having to deal with some of these regs or speaking with a maritime attorney.

All law is only theory until it is applied, and what the law actually says is not what lots of people would think on first reading.

Have you ever been in a marine collision and had reason to speak with those who actually enforce those regulations?
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Old 30-08-2012, 19:03   #149
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Originally Posted by JRM View Post
Right up till he tossed in the dink and motored over to the next boat, picked those folks up and went to the next boat for drinks. Apparently there were five or more boats that were buddy boating, and he was late freight. In my attempt to give myself space, I just gave him enough room to stick himself in there with his buddies. I still didn't like it, but I understand that he wanted to be nearer his mates.

JRM

-- we won't talk about the CIMI tall ship that decided to use their big dink to wakeboard at 6:am...
He probably should have motored up to you, explained he was late freight and asked if you minded him squeezing in, helping you move if you decided to etc..

Of course had you "snapped" you would have unknowingly been outnumbered 5 boats to one. Good to know the odds before picking a fight - LOL...

Of course he may not have gotten the answer he wanted...
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Old 30-08-2012, 19:04   #150
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Re: Anchored Vessels' Etiquette

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Good Lord !!! This thread has gotten way out of hand !! Anybody who will quote Col Regs, instead of telling folks to keep there eyes open and expect everybody out there don't know anything!! Keep away from ships that can sink ya !! even a half wit can figure that out!! my boat is my home !! I will take as few chances as I can to protect my home and my family!! gosh how come so many folks on here like to show there VAST knowlage of every rule of the sea ?? the first guy asked about anchoring not the rules of the road LOLOL Come folks can't we all get along ??

I actually agree with you. In fact the concept of "right of way makes the other guy wrong" doesn't exist on the ocean, because the one over-arching rule is to do *everything* you can to avoid a collision.

Among other things that means "don't play chicken with a cruise ship." The vessel with the least amount of maneuverability has the most right of way, but prudence is also required. If my engine might not start in time I shouldn't be crossing that cruise ship's path unless I'm a VERY good judge of distance, speed, wind, currents and anything else that could suddenly change my course and/or speed.

My boat is my responsibility and I have to protect it. No one else is going to, and I don't really need regs to tell me that. But when it comes to anchoring, it's a matter of what the other person will tolerate, and how in the world do you judge that in advance? Is it really OK to turn on a generator, topside, at 10PM? I would say no but I've seen it happen.
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