Anchor dragging by night, 45 knots wind, 1.5 m waves, between 3 boats and the beach

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

Of course. But unless you have:

a PhD
a D Sc
a personal named professorial chair in physical chemistry at Edinburgh U
the M.S. Twsett Chromatography Medal
the Dal Nogare Award
the Mackdougall Brisbane Prize
the Martin Award
the American Chemical Society National Award
the Golay Medal
published big mobs of peer-reviewed academic papers on chromatography

then you don't rate against John H Knox.

And all of that relates to anchors how?
I know plenty of smart people on paper who have a tough time doing the simplest of tasks in the real world.

Personally I'd rather trust someone who is illiterate and uneducated that knows boats and can do real world metal fabrication and welding.

[Mike Banks]

I do not know of any anchor that holds well in sand. Some are a little better than others--but in all cases a heavy anchor and lot of short linked chain and a kellet will help. If you have more than one anchor, a tandem or Bahamian set as well would be a good ploy. I like a kellet because they take the shock out of the chain, if used properly at the correct distance from the anchor--which I take as being at least the depth of water.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I used Bruce for years on my long gone Hunter 30. I used both the 33# and later a 44#. But along came ell grass here in Massachusetts and the Bruce cannot be trusted in our ell grass infested harbors.

Sure, it feels as if the thing gets set just as it use to before ell grass. But put enough force on to rode and the anchor rips out a large divot of ocean bottom that takes what seems like forever just to clean the crap off the anchor. Now if ell grass is not found where you anchor, then the Bruce is a good choice. But be careful here in Massachusetts. You might find your boat on a beach with a Bruce.

We anchor in grass in shallow water most of the time & the CQR has handled it well. I will admit it can be a pain in the ass to set but when well set it has always held us including more storms than I can count. I always use a minimum of 7-1 scope & back down on it as hard as I can. We also get a wind direction change most of the time in the middle of the night & the CQR pivots but stays buried. I'm talking about a real CQR, not a copy.

[Scout 30]

One thing nobody is talking about is the difficulty some of the next gen anchors have resetting after a wind change. Panope's videos clearly show some just dragging along the bottom. I did note that he is using a very short scope but after some research it appears some boats have been lost due to this problem.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

One thing nobody is talking about is the difficulty some of the next gen anchors have resetting after a wind change. Panope's videos clearly show some just dragging along the bottom. I did note that he is using a very short scope but after some research it appears some boats have been lost due to this problem.

I will share my experience using my 80# Manson Supreme in about 10' with 5/16 G4 chain and as much scope as the crowded harbor would allow. We were anchored at Lake Tashmo on Martha's Vineyard and the anchor was well set when we had a 180 degree wind shift. This happened in the afternoon while I was at the helm watching our boat starting to float away from the others.

I started the engines and retrieved the anchor and motored back to a safe location, cleaned the mud from the anchor and reset it. Now maybe the anchor would have reset on it's own but crowded harbors do not allow boats to sail 100-200' or so while anchors reset. I was and remain very disappointed with this anchor. I have also had trouble just getting it to set over in Lagoon Pond at Vineyard Haven regardless of the scope.

My experience with Delta (55 & 88#s) is they slowly plow. OK for short time anchoring only.

I don't believe there is a perfect anchor. They all have limitations.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by foggysail

I will share my experience using my 80# Manson Supreme in about 10' with 5/16 G4 chain and as much scope as the crowded harbor would allow. We were anchored at Lake Tashmo on Martha's Vineyard and the anchor was well set when we had a 180 degree wind shift. This happened in the afternoon while I was at the helm watching our boat starting to float away from the others.

I started the engines and retrieved the anchor and motored back to a safe location, cleaned the mud from the anchor and reset it. Now maybe the anchor would have reset on it's own but crowded harbors do not allow boats to sail 100-200' or so while anchors reset. I was and remain very disappointed with this anchor. I have also had trouble just getting it to set over in Lagoon Pond at Vineyard Haven regardless of the scope.

My experience with Delta (55 & 88#s) is they slowly plow. OK for short time anchoring only.

I don't believe there is a perfect anchor. They all have limitations.

Can you tell us what your scope was? Do you back down hard on the Mantus when you set it? We've also got a High Tensile Danforth that is a strong anchor with massive holding power but always pulls out with a direction change & then tends to just skip along the bottom instead of resetting, especially if there's any grass.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Can you tell us what your scope was? Do you back down hard on the Mantus when you set it? We've also got a High Tensile Danforth that is a strong anchor with massive holding power but always pulls out with a direction change & then tends to just skip along the bottom instead of resetting, especially if there's any grass.

Whoa, pump the brakes there

He had difficulty with a MANSON resetting, not a MANTUS. I had a Rocna and was disappointed with it- several times couldn't get to set, and once dragged in a 10 knot breeze 180 deg windshift.
I had had a Mantus on my prior boat and it was amazing, in setting and resetting. New boat came with Rocna which I was instantly underwhelmed with in comparison. A season ago a changed my rocna for a mantus and have had great experience again.

My opinion is that the MANSON and ROCNA have heavier (and possibly stronger) shanks which help to prevent proper anchor orientation in setting and resetting, especially in softer substrates. The MANTUS seems to do better, perhaps because of lighter shank, or perhaps wider base of rollbar.

In any case, illustrates that even next gen anchors are not perfect. But my personal experience is that since I started using a Mantus several years ago- I am 100% in drop and instantly set (no letting it percolate, gently caressing out the rode, etc), and 100% in resetting with windshifts.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

And all of that relates to anchors how?
I know plenty of smart people on paper who have a tough time doing the simplest of tasks in the real world.

Personally I'd rather trust someone who is illiterate and uneducated that knows boats and can do real world metal fabrication and welding.

A trade can't be learned in a book.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Can you tell us what your scope was? Do you back down hard on the Mantus when you set it? We've also got a High Tensile Danforth that is a strong anchor with massive holding power but always pulls out with a direction change & then tends to just skip along the bottom instead of resetting, especially if there's any grass.

Scope was about 5 and the anchor is a Manson Supreme, not a Mantus. I always power down on an anchor rode to make sure the anchor is set properly. If I can pull it, the wind/current if any can also pull it. The anchor chain almost looks like a steel rod when I set them.

I have a lot of windage with canvas covering both the helm area and the rear deck.

EDIT: BAck in my sailboat (Hunter 30) days, anchoring was never a problem. With my power boat it seems as if nothing can be trusted. Started with a Delta 55....it plowed. Moved upward to an 88........it plowed and rests comfortably in my basement if anybody wants a good deal on an almost new Delta 88.

I thought I had the cat's meow with the Manson which I purchased instead of the Rocna at the time Rocna had shaft issues. And since the Manson failed, proving to be unreliable I purchased a Fortress FX55, probably should have purchase an FX125. But with my much larger, heavier power boat anchoring is becoming a challenge.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Whoa, pump the brakes there

He had difficulty with a MANSON resetting, not a MANTUS. I had a Rocna and was disappointed with it- several times couldn't get to set, and once dragged in a 10 knot breeze 180 deg windshift.
I had had a Mantus on my prior boat and it was amazing, in setting and resetting. New boat came with Rocna which I was instantly underwhelmed with in comparison. A season ago a changed my rocna for a mantus and have had great experience again.

My opinion is that the MANSON and ROCNA have heavier (and possibly stronger) shanks which help to prevent proper anchor orientation in setting and resetting, especially in softer substrates. The MANTUS seems to do better, perhaps because of lighter shank, or perhaps wider base of rollbar.

In any case, illustrates that even next gen anchors are not perfect. But my personal experience is that since I started using a Mantus several years ago- I am 100% in drop and instantly set (no letting it percolate, gently caressing out the rode, etc), and 100% in resetting with windshifts.

My mistake. There are so many of these new anchors out now they kind of run together but I know there are differences & I'm sure they can be quite important. I've decided to try maybe the newest one out there, the Rocna Vulcan. It's got a shorter shank that fits my boat well. Not to much data on it yet but what I've seen indicates it sets quickly & it appears to be very strongly built. While the CQR has served us well for many years I think that having an anchor that sets very quickly with short scope could be a lifesaver in an emergency. Fingers crossed.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Scope was about 5 and the anchor is a Manson Supreme, not a Mantus. I always power down on an anchor rode to make sure the anchor is set properly. If I can pull it, the wind/current if any can also pull it. The anchor chain almost looks like a steel rod when I set them.

I have a lot of windage with canvas covering both the helm area and the rear deck.

EDIT: BAck in my sailboat (Hunter 30) days, anchoring was never a problem. With my power boat it seems as if nothing can be trusted. Started with a Delta 55....it plowed. Moved upward to an 88........it plowed and rests comfortably in my basement if anybody wants a good deal on an almost new Delta 88.

I thought I had the cat's meow with the Manson which I purchased instead of the Rocna at the time Rocna had shaft issues. And since the Manson failed, proving to be unreliable I purchased a Fortress FX55, probably should have purchase an FX125. But with my much larger, heavier power boat anchoring is becoming a challenge.

Defender has this on clearance: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1&id=3900686

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Whoa, pump the brakes there

He had difficulty with a MANSON resetting, not a MANTUS. ...

My opinion is that the MANSON and ROCNA have heavier (and possibly stronger) shanks which help to prevent proper anchor orientation in setting and resetting, especially in softer substrates. The MANTUS seems to do better, perhaps because of lighter shank, or perhaps wider base of rollbar.

In any case, illustrates that even next gen anchors are not perfect. ...

Your findings are confirmed by Panope's tests here on CF. For this reason I've also purchased a MANTUS (even though they are not available here and have to be imported) and will keep my ROCNA as kedge or second anchor. (Third anchor is a Kobra - looks like a CQR, but that's where the similarity ends. )
========
That Knox guy seems to have been thorough in his testing and evaluating. Basically he states (in the reference Alan has posted) that 5:1 scope is a safe minimum with 'modern' (3rd gen?) anchors but in stronger winds the required rode length is proportional to the wind speed in knots. That proportion varies with the weight of chain used, length of vessel, and sq.rt of depth but basically boils down to around one metre of chain for each knot of wind speed in 5m depth, 1.2m chain in 8m depth, and so on (you can get a more accurate figure using his formulae but why bother).

In extreme conditions (snatching due to wave action) he recommends adding some nylon multiplat to the chain; I carry 50m chain attached permanently to 50m multiplat for just such an occassion, so I'm kinda fond of this old guy - it seems multiplat is much more effective than a kellet in absorbing those snatch loads.

[Simi 60]

Strange how our Manson supreme has been the best anchor ever.
We mostly anchor in weed over sand and muddy sand.
Sometimes in areas where there is a 180degree tide change every 6 hours and several knots of current.
Scope is mostly 3:1 but we'll go 6:1 depending on weather.
Setting method is always the same - slow to stop, drop, run out chain, attach nylon snubber and let weight of boat, wind, current set the anchor.
Not one inch of drag in 2 years at anchor with several 50+ knot storms and one 80+ knot storm, all of these storms involved a 180 degree wind shift before they hit.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Strange how our Manson supreme has been the best anchor ever.
We mostly anchor in weed over sand and muddy sand.
Sometimes in areas where there is a 180degree tide change every 6 hours and several knots of current.
Scope is mostly 3:1 but we'll go 6:1 depending on weather.
Setting method is always the same - slow to stop, drop, run out chain, attach nylon snubber and let weight of boat, wind, current set the anchor.
Not one inch of drag in 2 years at anchor with several 50+ knot storms and one 80+ knot storm, all of these storms involved a 180 degree wind shift before they hit.

It's very important to back down on a CQR till it stops the boat just to make sure it's set. The next gen anchors may set more reliably but I think it's still a good idea unless you're diving the anchor.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Strange how our Manson supreme has been the best anchor ever...

Nothing strange about that - Manson, Rocna, Excel, Kobra, Ultra, Spade, Mantus (and a few other 3rd gens) are fantastic at 180 degree windshifts. Compared to 2nd gen anchors (Delta, Bruce) they are light years ahead but Panope's tests showed up a weakness with larger rollbar anchors in soft mud - not a big deal, still light-years ahead of Delta/Bruce (and a whole other universe from CQR or fisherman) but still worth noting.

Panope's testing was rather extreme - not likely to happen often, so maybe surprising to hear of regular problems with Rocna or Manson - undersize perhaps? Soft mud bottom maybe?