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Old 16-10-2008, 11:37   #286
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Originally Posted by Hiracer
... He drove that boat with a criminal reckless disregard for the safety of those in his boat and a criminal disregard for the safety of those on the lake ...
Isn't "reckless disregard" redundant, since reckless means there is a disregard for safety?
The “criminal” prefix would be defined under the appropriate California statue(s).
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Old 16-10-2008, 13:06   #287
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Isn't "reckless disregard" redundant, since reckless means there is a disregard for safety?
The “criminal” prefix would be defined under the appropriate California statue(s).
Gord,

You could look at it that way but I don't.

Disregarding the risk to others is what Perdock did. But not all disregard of risk is reckless. Further, not all reckless disregard falls within a criminal statute's definition.

So, one could reasonably say that all criminal disregard of risk to others is reckless.

But the reverse direction is not necessary true. Not all reckless disregard of risk is criminally sanctioned. Therefore the tautology is not perfect.

Or, something like that.
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Old 16-10-2008, 16:29   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
Gord,

You could look at it that way but I don't.

Disregarding the risk to others is what Perdock did. But not all disregard of risk is reckless. Further, not all reckless disregard falls within a criminal statute's definition.

So, one could reasonably say that all criminal disregard of risk to others is reckless.

But the reverse direction is not necessary true. Not all reckless disregard of risk is criminally sanctioned. Therefore the tautology is not perfect.

Or, something like that.
I think I have an ice cream headache...
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Old 16-10-2008, 16:38   #289
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So by this logic, you are driving on the freeway at 5 mph over the legal speed limit. for whatever reason, maybe you hydroplane, you cross lanes and kill someone.

The artemis camera catches both the evidence that you drifted lanes and your speed of 70mph in a 65mph zone.

You are now going to spend twenty years in jail?

BTW - I don't think it has been established that there is a speed limit.

Vehicular manslaughter is the "go to jail" square on the monopoly board of life.

Like I said - I don't really care who goes to jail and who doesn't in this case. It really doesn't affect my monkeysphere.
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Old 16-10-2008, 17:24   #290
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I get this at times on forums

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I think I have an ice cream headache...

They just aren't as much "FUN"
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Old 17-10-2008, 10:58   #291
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So by this logic, you are driving on the freeway at 5 mph over the legal speed limit. for whatever reason, maybe you hydroplane, you cross lanes and kill someone.

The artemis camera catches both the evidence that you drifted lanes and your speed of 70mph in a 65mph zone.

You are now going to spend twenty years in jail?
That is in no way analogous to what Perdock did. There is no question that Perdock's conduct was reckless, speed limit or no speed limit.

It is obvious that Perdock was risking the safety of those in his boat and those on the lake.

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Like I said - I don't really care who goes to jail and who doesn't in this case. It really doesn't affect my monkeysphere.
Oh, it most definitely does affect you. And your family and friends too. No man is an island. I think I've already done that quote in this thread.
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Old 17-10-2008, 11:08   #292
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Old 17-10-2008, 11:56   #293
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Gord, whether or not you consider the term 'reckless disregard' to be redundant, many jurisdictions (including your own) have defined the offence of 'criminal negligence causing death' (or its equivalent) as engaging in a course of conduct that displays a 'wanton and reckless disregard for the lives and safety of others'. This a very high degree of negligence and is intended to distinguish conduct that merits criminal sanction from mere negligence, or perhaps carelessness, which does not.

Does the course of conduct engaged in by Perdock meet that standard? I would suggest that there is at least a prima facie, or arguable case on the point and that is sufficient in most jurisdictions to indict. Please understand that the fact that there are arguments on both sides is largely irrelevant - such is virtually always the case, especially once lawyers become involved in advancing the interests of their own clients.

Excal, you obviously believe that no criminal intention short of a specific intent to kill should suffice for a criminal prosecution. Most civilized countries disagree, as it allows people who give no thought to the lives of others to engage in conduct which can bring about dire consequences to innocent third parties, including death, that any reasonable person would have forseen. Our difference of opinion in this area therefore is not, as you suggest, merely nuanced, but substantial.

Brad
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Old 17-10-2008, 13:07   #294
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i had a big powerboat bearing down on me at 20 or 30 knots on a collision course in the middle of the day and was having problems getting out of his way. one thing he did not do is slow down. this is also something that i suspect Perdock never considered that dark night.
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Old 19-10-2008, 17:03   #295
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That is in no way analogous to what Perdock did. There is no question that Perdock's conduct was reckless, speed limit or no speed limit.
You may be right. As far as I know Perdock didn't break any laws, yet driving over the legal speed limit is against the law.
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Old 20-10-2008, 09:49   #296
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As far as I know Perdock didn't break any laws.
Perdock broke both civil and criminal laws. This is the third time I've posted these statutes. I guess you missed them the first two times:

Operation of Vessel [civil law]

655. (a) No person shall use any vessel . . . in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person.

Harbors and Navigation Code Section 655 - Operation of Vessel

. . .


Penal Code
Manslaughter [criminal law]

192.5. Vehicular manslaughter pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 191.5 and subdivision (c) of Section 192 is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, and includes:

(c) Operating a vessel in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, and with gross negligence; or operating a vessel in the commission of a lawful act that might produce death, in an unlawful manner, and with gross negligence.

(d) Operating a vessel in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, but without gross negligence; or operating a vessel in the commission of a lawful act that might produce death, in an unlawful manner, but without gross negligence.

Penal Code Section 192.5 - Manslaughter




Driving over a posted speed limit is not the only way to violate vehicular laws. Driving too fast for conditions is a classic example. Perdock drove too fast for conditions, that is to say "in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person." And he operated "a vessel in the commission of a lawful act that might produce death, in an unlawful manner, and with gross negligence." And he operated "a vessel in the commission of a lawful act that might produce death, in an unlawful manner, but without gross negligence."

And I could go on, but you get the point. It's pretty obvious that Perdock violated a bunch of laws.
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Old 20-10-2008, 10:14   #297
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Even a posted speed limit is not written in stone. CONDITIONS dictate what is safe.
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Old 20-10-2008, 12:45   #298
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Even a posted speed limit is not written in stone.
Sometimes they're written on metal. Well, not actually written, more like...actually, I'm not sure. Painted or something. Maybe some kind of vinyl tape?
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Old 20-10-2008, 13:48   #299
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ex-cal,

"...but somewhere deep down inside, I really don't care that a young lady died and I really don't care if Perdock goes to jail and I really don't care if Dinius does or does not go to jail - Does that make me a bad person?"

maybe not bad just callous... what if it was your loved one?

or am I reading this statement wrong? If so...apologies. If not... sheesh, what a j*#%off.

mm
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Old 20-10-2008, 14:37   #300
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<snip>
You know - I don't pay taxes in California any more - thank God! - but somewhere deep down inside, I really don't care that a young lady died and I really don't care if Perdock goes to jail and I really don't care if Dinius does or does not go to jail - Does that make me a bad person?
<snip>
Wow, Dan, did you take a bath in the market downturn or something? Having read most of what you've written on CF over the past many months, I think I know you to be a better human being than your quote, above, might lead some to believe.

When a person dies through no fault of their own, it is sad. When it happens because of the thoughtless, negligent actions of another, especially someone who is in a position of authority and has to know better, it is tragic. And whenever an innocent person is made the scapegoat so that the responsible party can escape scot-free, it is a devastating breach of the social contract.

So when you say that ". . . somewhere deep down inside," you don't really care about any of that, I'm sure that "somewhere" can't be your heart.

TaoJones
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