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Old 25-07-2008, 12:51   #271
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California residents also think OJ Simpson is innocent. That's why san states have juries, prosecutors, defenders and a person in a black wardrobe presiding.

California media justice is a joke.

He who is popular is innocent...
Dan, your assertion that California residents think O.J.Simpson is innocent is ludicrous. I've only had one Californian tell me he actually believed Simpson was innocent, and he was a black firefighter. It would be more accurate to state that while almost all Californians believe Simpson murdered his wife, 12 people (his jury) voted not to convict, a far different thing.

California media justice is a term of your own creation, and is irrelevant in any event. The point you seem to have missed in the newspaper poll is that is was taken among Lake County residents, and it is in Lake County where the prosecutor believes he will find 12 unbiased citizens to hear the case against Dinius and agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Dinius is guilty and should go to prison for many, many years.

Your last observation that "He who is popular is innocent," is but another broadbrush slogan that is absurd on its face, but also has no application in this case. Dinius is not "popular," and the poll revealed that, in fact, it is Perdock those polled felt was the guilty party, even though he is popular - with the Sheriff's Department and the District Attorney's office.

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PS: What do you mean by "san states?"
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Old 25-07-2008, 14:53   #272
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Trying cases in the press has become an American tradition. Finding unbiased jury's is becoming more difficult in an age of ever increasing communication. That is not specific to California, and probably not specific to the US, but it is a fact.
As for OJ, it really had very little to do with popularity, but allot to do with how much he could pay in legal fees. The fact is, expensive lawyers are expensive for a reason. They are very good at finding loop holes, and finding ways to insert doubt into evidence. The system is not perfect, but I agree with the logic it is better to let a hundred guilty men go free then to convict one innocent man.
As history has proven, (even with OJ), the guilty will provide other opportunities for conviction.
In this instance, the real concern is the impact this is having on an innocent man's life. The bad side of not being able to find an unbiased jury, is that it may prolong the case, and continue to impact his life. (Yes, I know I am presuming him innocent, but that too, is our system.)
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Old 27-07-2008, 10:41   #273
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Tao Jones - A broad brush is exactly meant to cover a broad area. That is exactly why I made the sweeping statements I did.

There may be fine attributes of the California legal system that are not ridiculous but in world opinion California is a joke. There is a good reason my screen name is Ex-Cali.

Why does America have a complete inability to look in the mirror.

I would suggest you go back to post number one in this thread and read the indictment of California justice before attempting to defend it.

The US legal system is broken and California leads the way...
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Old 28-07-2008, 13:04   #274
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I previously described California law as "notoriously goofy." This was an exaggeration, but it was not an idle or popular wisdom claim. Go to any law library and you will find that the sheer volume of statutes and cases from California dwarf those of every other state including New York, Texas, and Florida. California produces more legislation and litigation than anyone else. The California Supreme Court seems to spend an inordinate amount of time resolving conflicts among the various Courts of Appeal. Relying on precedent from California is considered extremely dangerous by lawyers in most other states.
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Old 28-07-2008, 14:13   #275
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Where is King Solomon when we need him. Dinius would get a handslap, the Owner would get a lashing, and Perdock's backside of his neck would meet the sword. The written law cannot cover every single incident. Especially when favortism is given. There is a moral law. At least there should be, and in this case justice is being immorally served.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:48   #276
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Witnesses said a motorboat was traveling at a high rate of speed before it struck a stationary sailboat, killing a 37-year-old woman Saturday night on Lake Washington, according to police.
Three other people were taken to Harborview Medical Center with nonlife-threatening injuries.
Seattle police say the motorboat was being driven by a 17-year-old boy around 8:45 p.m. when it collided with the rear end of the sailboat. Police spokeswoman Renee Witt said the woman was killed on impact.
A Seattle Police Harbor Patrol boat responded to the scene and began CPR on the woman, who was taken to shore and pronounced dead. A spokeswoman from the Seattle Fire Department said the woman had been thrown from the sailboat.
The King County Medical Examiner's Office did not identify the woman.
The teenage driver, whose name also was not released, was questioned and released, Witt said.
The accident occurred west of Mercer Island, off the 4500 block of Lake Washington Boulevard South near Seattle's Seward Park. Police did not say whether the crash was within 100 yards of the shoreline, where the speed limit is 7 knots, or 8 mph.
Two teenagers in the motorboat, the 17-year-old driver and a 16-year-old girl, were treated for minor injuries. A 45-year-old male on the sailboat was also taken to the hospital with a back injury. A third male passenger on the sailboat was not injured.
Witt said witnesses on shore said the motorboat hit the sailboat, went up over the back of it and struck the woman. Witt said witnesses told police the sailboat was anchored at the time of the crash. She did not know whether its lights were on, making it visible to other boats.
Seattle police are still investigating the accident.
Last year, more than 26 people died in boating accidents in Washington state, according to the U.S. Coast Guard.
Boaters between the ages of 12 and 20 are required to take a one-time basic boating-safety class to obtain the Boating Safety Education Card required by the state. The law, which eventually will apply to everyone born after Jan. 1, 1955, applies to anyone who operates a boat powered by a motor with at least 15 horsepower,

Local News | Woman dies in Lake Washington boating wreck | Seattle Times Newspaper
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:00   #277
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Just a few days ago, Ron Scott pulled his Bayliner runabout out of the water, figuring he was done boating for the season. But with unusually warm weather in the forecast this week, he decided to launch the boat back out on to Lake Tapps.
Scott hadn't taken a day off work for two months. And so, on Monday night, he invited along some friends who normally would have been watching football at the tavern Scott and his business partner bought back in February.
"On a whim, they said, 'Let's go out on the boat,' " said Heather Malavotte, a bartender at the Wilkeson Saloon in Wilkeson, a tiny Pierce County town about 12 miles south of Scott's Bonney Lake home.
Just after 10:30 p.m., Scott was killed when his boat was rammed from behind by another boat, according to Bonney Lake police. Scott's death came just two days after Heather DeHart, a violist and music teacher at Tyee Middle School in Bellevue, was killed in a similar crash on Lake Washington.
Scott and his friends were "trolling around" the south end of Lake Tapps, in between Inlet and Interlake islands, at low speed when the driver of a faster motor boat "ran up over the back" of Scott's boat "and veered off to the right side," throwing Scott into the water, said Bonney Lake police Officer Tony Rice. Divers later retrieved his body from the lake.
Two women on board Scott's boat were seriously injured and were being treated at Seattle's Harborview Medical Center, said Rice. A male passenger on one of the boats it's not clear which one is being treated at a hospital for a compound fracture to his leg. Four others received minor injuries.
According to Malavotte, it took rescuers more than an hour to find Scott after he was thrown from the boat. The Pierce County Medical Examiner's Office determined the 49-year-old suffered blunt-force injuries to his head, chest and leg and that he drowned.
Rice said speed, alcohol and the darkness are being investigated as factors in the crash.
A Bonney Lake man, 41, is in Pierce County Jail on investigation of homicide by watercraft and two counts of assault by watercraft, jail records show. He is expected to make his first court appearance today.

Saturday's accident
On Saturday, DeHart, 38, of Redmond, died around 8:45 p.m. when a motorboat, driven by a 17-year-old boy, slammed into the sailboat she was on with two companions. Seattle police said witnesses told them the motorboat was traveling at a high rate of speed before it struck the stationary sailboat west of Mercer Island, off the 4500 block of Lake Washington Boulevard South near Seattle's Seward Park.
Witnesses on shore told police the motorboat hit the sailboat, went up over the back of it and struck DeHart, throwing her into the water. The 17-year-old motorboat driver was questioned and released.
No new information on the Lake Washington crash was available Tuesday, said police spokeswoman Renee Witt. It could take months to complete the accident investigation, she said, adding that it's too soon to say whether the 17-year-old could face charges.
DeHart and Scott are the 17th and 18th people to die in boating accidents in the state this year, said A.J. Parlan, a program specialist with Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission's boating program.
Last year, 26 people died in 22 boating accidents in Washington, according to national Coast Guard statistics.
Dan Shipman has never seen anything like these back-to-back collisions in his 30-year career with the Coast Guard. Shipman is the recreational-boating-safety specialist for the Seattle-based 13th Coast Guard District, which covers Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana.
From what he knows of the two investigations, Shipman said excessive speed and the failure of both suspect drivers to assign a lookout someone to watch for boats and other obstacles that can be obscured because of the light being cast from shore appear to be common denominators.
"We have boats colliding with boats and other things every day but ... I've never seen a collision like this before, where you have a boat go clear over top of another boat," he said. And to have it happen twice just two days apart "is absolutely shocking," Shipman said.

Teddy bear of a man
At the Wilkeson Saloon, regulars sipped on Landshark Lager Scott's favorite beer in his honor Tuesday night. Bartender Malavotte described her boss as a friendly, goofy, teddy bear of a man who loved being on his boat, hanging out with friends and socializing with the Wilkeson's patrons.
"It's pretty somber in here," she said. "I keep waiting for him to walk through that door."
Scott grew up in Southern California and lived in the Washington, D.C., area before moving to Bonney Lake about 10 years ago, said Scott's friend and business partner, Alan Smith.
His parents had both died, and his younger brother lives in Hong Kong, so for Scott, his friends really were his family. Even after he and his wife, Lisa, recently divorced after 20 years of marriage, they "remained the best of friends" and lived just four blocks apart, Smith said.
Scott and Smith, who worked as agents in the same Bonney Lake real-estate office, had long dreamed of owning a bar together. They bought the 90-year-old tavern in February and were slowly fixing it up.
When Scott headed out on his boat Monday night, "the plan was to try to take advantage of this last little bit of summer and he knew that lake like the back of his hand," Smith said.
"He just really enjoyed being around people and ... there are a lot of people hurting tonight."

Local News | Bonney Lake man dies in Lake Tapps boating wreck | Seattle Times Newspaper
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Old 15-10-2008, 10:44   #278
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Apparently, the civil case has been settled.

Thornton's son gets $760K

Webber gets $18K

Dinius gets $13K

Perdock gets 0

Of the 4 insurance policies involved, one belonged to a guy named James Walker - the "lookout" on the power boat:

abc7news.com I-Team: Boat Crash Settlement
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Old 15-10-2008, 11:24   #279
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It will be interesting to see if we can get confirmation of this settlement from the parties.

Settlement of Perdocks insurance proceeds could not have occured without his express consent. This admission of civil liability may not be admissible in the criminal case, but it certainly is relevent for our purposes. It impeachs the criminal investigation and the resulting prosecution. His consent to permitting his insurance proceeds to be used to compensate the people he killed and injured contradicts his public statements about the case.

Of course, he will state that he consented to the settlement in order to limited his personal liability in excess of the policy. And there probably is a large measure of truth in that, which again reinforces the view that he knows he is guilty.

My hope is that Dinius is found not-guilty in the criminal case, framing the issue in a very public way whether the prosecutor should charge Perdock. My hope is that it becomes a career limiting move if the prosecutor fails to to charge Perdock.

The crime here is that criminal prosecution is not an either/or proposition, as we have discussed here before. There is no reason why Perdock cannot be charged in addition to the charge against Dinius. Dinius does not have to be found innocent in order for the prosecutor to charge Perdock. That Dinius is guilty of any crime in no way means that Perdock didn't also commit a crime.

But you would never know that from listening to this so-called prosecutor.
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Old 15-10-2008, 12:19   #280
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Lake County Record-Bee Public Poll
Should Perdock also be on trial with Dinius? - Topix

Should Perdock also be on trial with Dinius?

Results (Oct. 15/08) of 1210 opinions:

Yes,it was all Perdock's fault 924 (76%)
No 121 (10%)
Yes, his actions contributed 101 (8%)
Yes. 27 (2%)
He's a cop... can't be guilty 19 (1%)
No, his actions didn't harm 10 (<%)
No, it was all Dinius' fault 8 (<%)
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Old 16-10-2008, 00:53   #281
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The crime here is that criminal prosecution is not an either/or proposition, as we have discussed here before. There is no reason why Perdock cannot be charged in addition to the charge against Dinius. Dinius does not have to be found innocent in order for the prosecutor to charge Perdock. That Dinius is guilty of any crime in no way means that Perdock didn't also commit a crime.
When is an accident a crime? Was someone negligent? Almost certainly. Is it "criminal." Yes - under the laws it is.

So let's not spend tax dollars prosecuting one person. Let's spend tax dollars prosecuting 2 people.

What ever happened to - It sucks, that was an accident, but in life there is sometimes death?

You know - I don't pay taxes in California any more - thank God! - but somewhere deep down inside, I really don't care that a young lady died and I really don't care if Perdock goes to jail and I really don't care if Dinius does or does not go to jail - Does that make me a bad person?

I used to fly - it got to be way no fun when insurance rates kept going up and everyone needs to be sued when someone dies.

I used to ride dirt bikes and I took responsibility that I could die.

I sail. I take responsibility that I could die. I would hope like hell that no one goes to jail if there is an accident and i am killed. I hope like hell that my life insurance pays off like it should to take care of my family but I certainly don't want the other guy footing the bill.

There is no such thing as too young to die or dying before your time. You die right on schedule. And it is absolutely on everyone's schedule - so live life while you have it.

I know the world ain't that simple and if my life insurance can avoid paying by having your life insurance pay etc etc.

We've just got all this stuff way to mixed up.

Don't get me wrong - I know it's the way it is because lot's and lot's and lot's of people want it this way.

Oh, and I also blame Ralph Nader
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Old 16-10-2008, 06:05   #282
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Ex Cal, the logical extension of your philosophy is that we have no laws at all. Who cares if kids are poisioned by dangerous products or molested by predators, who cares if people are run over by drunk drivers? Just leave my money alone - everyone can and should look after themselves. After all, no life is too short and accidents will happen!

The point is that this was not an 'accident' - a random, largely unavoidable incident. Pure happenstance. There is every reason to believe that it was the result of wrongdoing by at least one party.

You suggest that product safety standards are unnecessary. Well, we see the result of that kind of thinking with dangerous, even life-threatening toys imported from China. Further, we can virtually guarantee that the huge damage awards against MD (for knowingly allowing DC10's with improper door seals to continue in service), and against Ford (for doing the same with exploding gas tanks on the Pinto) have led to more responsible behavior by not only those companies, but by many others.

Perhaps you don't think that there is a cost to society when children lose their parents. Perhaps you do not believe that children are a valuable asset worth protecting. And while government does tend towards overkill (e.g, California's one-time proposal of mandatory helmets for boaters), surely there can be no doubt that operating potentially dangerous equipment in a crowded world while you are impaired by alcohol or a drug is not a 'freedom' or 'right' at all; certainly it is not one worth fighting for.

Do what you want if you pose no risk to others, Excal, but endanger the lives of others and you have overstepped your bounds. Then governments have not only the right, but the duty to intervene under our 'social contract'.

Brad
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Old 16-10-2008, 08:08   #283
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And while government does tend towards overkill (e.g, California's one-time proposal of mandatory helmets for boaters),
Brad - You and I can argue for twenty pages about nuance. However, fundamentally we agree. We just have a different line in the sand.

My point was that Perdock did not go out on that lake with the intent to kill anyone. Dinius did not take the helm while the owner went below for more beer because he thought it would be cool to kill someone.

Somewhere way back in the beginning of this thread I said that no one should be criminally held liable for this tragic accident.

Shouldn't we be using court time to put away some real criminals? Like a banker or two
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Old 16-10-2008, 10:58   #284
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My point was that Perdock did not go out on that lake with the intent to kill anyone. Dinius did not take the helm while the owner went below for more beer because he thought it would be cool to kill someone.

Somewhere way back in the beginning of this thread I said that no one should be criminally held liable for this tragic accident.
Perdock is most definitely a criminal. He drove that boat with a criminal reckless disregard for the safety of those in his boat and a criminal disregard for the safety of those on the lake. That he did not have specific intent to injure or kill in no way exculpates his recklessness. His conduct is a good example of why every society on the globe has criminal laws where specific intent is not an element.

Sooner or later, somebody is gonna get hurt or killed if people drive at night too fast to see and avoid hitting unlit hazards. And it's criminal recklessness to needlessly expose people to those kinds of risks.

Sure, life is never risk free. But every society has a threshold where risky behavior becomes indefensible and at that point become criminal. Perdock crossed that line because the kind of death and injury he caused was entirely predictable, and further there is no cogent reason or even defensible reason to engage in that conduct.

One of the witnesses predicted that he was going kill somebody that night and, sure enough, he did. For what reason??
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Old 16-10-2008, 11:08   #285
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There is no such thing as too young to die or dying before your time.
When the selfish and reckless behavior of one snuffs the life out of another for no good reason, the deceased was robbed of life, IMO. Without their consent, I might add.

I don't want to live in a society where everybody views that as an 'accident' undeserving of criminal prosecution because tax dollars might be 'wasted.' My vision of society is quite a bit different.
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