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28-05-2017, 15:19
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,131
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America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Thoroughly enjoying watching the America's Cup races from Bermuda. Watching these 50 footers foiling along at up to 40 knots is very impressive. But it got me wondering, they all seem to be trimmed down by the bow - why is that? I'd imagine that it would makes them far more likely to bury their bows as they come down off the foils. Anyone have a good explanation of why they sail (or should I say fly) the boats this way?
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“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.” – Mark Twain
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28-05-2017, 15:43
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Maryland - USA
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Pearson 39
Posts: 52
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
I tried very hard to get into it, but it is too far removed from what my mind visualizes as sailing. I can appreciate the technical aspects of it, but as a sailor, I'd much prefer watching a well-fought competition between sailboats and not racing foils.
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28-05-2017, 16:16
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Scotland
Posts: 873
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Saw ( watched on telly !! ) some from San Francisco last year , incredible spectacle , certainly not " sailing " as some may relate to but excellent none the less , as for bow diwn , no idea , windage ?
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28-05-2017, 16:19
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 1,160
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
yes, windage is less in that position apparently. Ideal is bow down and healing to weather...
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Matt Paulin
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28-05-2017, 16:21
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,131
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherod
Saw ( watched on telly !! ) some from San Francisco last year , incredible spectacle , certainly not " sailing " as some may relate to but excellent none the less , as for bow diwn , no idea , windage ?
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I've heard windage, righting moment, and a few others. Not sure I understand any of it, though. Hard to wrap your mind around it all. But, I disagree regarding it not being sailing. The hull, rig and sails are essentially one-design, with each team being allowed to innovate on foils and control systems. Tremendous sailing skill required, mostly from the helmsman. When the boat are so evenly matched, the sailing skills of the crew make all the difference.
__________________
“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.” – Mark Twain
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29-05-2017, 09:08
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Gulf Coast of FL
Boat: Pearson
Posts: 408
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
windage is it. scraping the air off the wqter and directing upward to the " sails"? notice the downward curve of the bows.WOW and the crew has arms and more arms. Definately taken to another level. And i thought 15 yrs. ago i was hot in m tri with a rooster tail 35 ' a stern doing 27 knots, nah i m a baby..... awsome boats and skill love it...😍🤑
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Ken Z
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29-05-2017, 09:35
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,208
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by montigre
I tried very hard to get into it, but it is too far removed from what my mind visualizes as sailing. I can appreciate the technical aspects of it, but as a sailor, I'd much prefer watching a well-fought competition between sailboats and not racing foils.
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I think they should return to the original Grand Banks type schooners or at least the 12m boats. JMO
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29-05-2017, 09:40
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence
I think they should return to the original Grand Banks type schooners or at least the 12m boats. JMO
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29-05-2017, 09:41
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Japan
Boat: '82 Mikawa MKII 30'
Posts: 97
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Maybe for a demonstration for what can be done with wind and cloth, but not the America's cup. I was totally disappointed and grossed out by the waterbug look and incredulous speed during the one in San Fran Cisco. What happened to the classic schooner look, with boats vying for wind shifts and being becalmed and a race taking over an hour, instead of this quick, quick, over and out type "race". Discouraging!
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29-05-2017, 09:48
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Knoxville, TN
Boat: 35' Sport Cruiser
Posts: 20
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
One other possibility would be that the nose-down attitude is necessary to keep the lift in the bow from lifting the boat out of the water. Race cars create downforce with foils, but that would create drag, which I would think these racers would want to avoid.
So in lieu of foils and spoilers, they must keep the nose-down attitude to keep the boat from acting as a wing and lifting?
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29-05-2017, 10:23
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
I was lucky enough to watch one of the races in Newport the year Conner lost & the 12 meters were great fun to watch. That being said I'd love to see this kind of money poured into wooden schooners reflective of the original America. If not that then how about bringing back the J class. Now that would be impressive!
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29-05-2017, 10:48
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#12
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,174
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote: "I think they should return to the original Grand Banks type schooners or at least the 12m boats. JMO"
Yeah - that'd be my preference too, but we just have to accept that those people live in a different universe. "Foiling" is to sailing as Kraft Processed Cheese is to Blue Stilton :-)
TP
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29-05-2017, 10:52
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Scotland
Posts: 873
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsubob
Maybe for a demonstration for what can be done with wind and cloth, but not the America's cup. I was totally disappointed and grossed out by the waterbug look and incredulous speed during the one in San Fran Cisco. What happened to the classic schooner look, with boats vying for wind shifts and being becalmed and a race taking over an hour, instead of this quick, quick, over and out type "race". Discouraging!
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Yes it would be nice to see what is ( arguably) one of the worlds great yacht races returning to something other than a round the bouys / bay sprint type thing , it doesn't have to be a Vende globe but more than just an hour please .
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29-05-2017, 11:00
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,208
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds
Quote: "I think they should return to the original Grand Banks type schooners or at least the 12m boats. JMO"
Yeah - that'd be my preference too, but we just have to accept that those people live in a different universe. "Foiling" is to sailing as Kraft Processed Cheese is to Blue Stilton :-)
TP
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I'm afraid you are correct. I has become a different universe. I hope some of the old is maintained someplace for posterity.
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29-05-2017, 12:07
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: PA, sail Chesapeake
Boat: Lots of boats.
Posts: 390
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Re: America's Cup - boats foiling with bow down trim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout 30
...how about bringing back the J class. Now that would be impressive!
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You are in luck, they do sail both restored and new J-boats. Things of beauty.
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