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Old 29-07-2014, 21:19   #31
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

SkipMac. Thanks for the weather class but seriously, have you been watching the weather lately. It’s getting more unpredictable every day. Btw some of us do not have the luxury of sipping Martini’s at the marina waiting for the ideal weather window. I fell victim to being behind schedule delivering a boat into charter West Palm Beach to Nassau. We ran into trouble past the point of no return. We were pushing her hard because we could see the front approaching and blew out the genny. What can I say, **** happens. There were no spare sails aboard. That one was on me.

Fiveslide, as far as the engine quitting, that was Murphy. Algae in the tank clogged the filters, who knew. Luckily the engine had a primer lever on the fuel pump and we took shifts hand pumping fuel all the way to Nassau.

Look, you can go across the stream in a bathtub for all I care. I just don’t recommended it. And what’s this fascination with size Skip. You should know, it’s not the size, it’s the motion. When I sail……I want a comfortable ride.

What’s your boats motion quotient?
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Old 29-07-2014, 21:57   #32
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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SkipMac. Thanks for the weather class but seriously, have you been watching the weather lately. It’s getting more unpredictable every day.
Sorry. Perhaps global weather patterns have been weird recently but that still doesn't mean that south FL to the Bahamas is subject to sudden, unpredictable, boat sinking storms. Hurricanes are not suddenly sneaking up on us and northers are not appearing off the coast without warning.

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Look, you can go across the stream in a bathtub for all I care. I just don’t recommended it. And what’s this fascination with size Skip.
You're the one that brought up size. You said the OP's boat is too small. Since you made that judgment call I thought it a reasonable question to ask what isn't too small.


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You should know, it’s not the size, it’s the motion. When I sail……I want a comfortable ride.
Of course. There's no question that a larger boat has an easier motion. I loved sailing my 65' steel ketch. It barely rocked in 4-6
seas. But until now motion was never the point you were pushing but the safety factor.
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Old 29-07-2014, 22:03   #33
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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SkipMac. Thanks for the weather class but seriously, have you been watching the weather lately. It’s getting more unpredictable every day. Btw some of us do not have the luxury of sipping Martini’s at the marina waiting for the ideal weather window. I fell victim to being behind schedule delivering a boat into charter West Palm Beach to Nassau. We ran into trouble past the point of no return. We were pushing her hard because we could see the front approaching and blew out the genny. What can I say, **** happens. There were no spare sails aboard. That one was on me.

Fiveslide, as far as the engine quitting, that was Murphy. Algae in the tank clogged the filters, who knew. Luckily the engine had a primer lever on the fuel pump and we took shifts hand pumping fuel all the way to Nassau.

Look, you can go across the stream in a bathtub for all I care. I just don’t recommended it. And what’s this fascination with size Skip. You should know, it’s not the size, it’s the motion. When I sail……I want a comfortable ride.

What’s your boats motion quotient?
Ahh. There are some facts, that explains why you got caught by that storm system. You tried to keep a schedule, that's all any of us have told him to avoid doing. You got hit by a storm system. If he picks a good weather window he will most likely have good sailing. Sure he could get hit by a little squall or two but nothing that will create seas like you encountered. That said, I still don't think a weather window will present itself that will let him make that round trip in the exact week he has planned for vacation.

Nice job recognizing the engine problem and limping it in.

I think you hit a sore spot with most people here when you compared him to a broke ass teenager and his boat to a guppy. I can't speak for the OP but plenty here will vouch for his boat and its capabilities.



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Old 30-07-2014, 19:27   #34
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

We were totally surprised with the algae since the engine check and Racor did not show any signs of the nasty stuff. That primer lever saved the day because sailing her with just the main would have been forever. It was surprising how rapidly the waters calmed down as we approached the banks.

Any and all manner of craft have crossed the pond or managed to circumnavigate. My reference to size suggests that crossing the stream in a boat of that size is not advisable. I don’t care what the weather window is. Safety is a paramount concern and small craft such as the Potter with her minimal ballast, centerboard and hung rudder is not what I would call qualified to cross because **** happens when you least expect it.

Now please guys don’t tell me because the designer got lucky and crossed the pond she is a Blue Water Boat.

WEST WIGHT POTTER 19 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
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Old 30-07-2014, 19:39   #35
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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We were totally surprised with the algae since the engine check and Racor did not show any signs of the nasty stuff. That primer lever saved the day because sailing her with just the main would have been forever. It was surprising how rapidly the waters calmed down as we approached the banks.

Any and all manner of craft have crossed the pond or managed to circumnavigate. My reference to size suggests that crossing the stream in a boat of that size is not advisable. I don’t care what the weather window is. Safety is a paramount concern and small craft such as the Potter with her minimal ballast, centerboard and hung rudder is not what I would call qualified to cross because **** happens when you least expect it.

Now please guys don’t tell me because the designer got lucky and crossed the pond she is a Blue Water Boat.

WEST WIGHT POTTER 19 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
generally i dont say its unsafe. however i should tell this one true tale of a story that could have been a disaster{insurance claim} if not for those who came in right away offering a tow.the boat was a brand-new searay under warranty that blew a u-joint and ruptured the rubber boot to one of the volvo-penta outdrives. the bilge pumps could not keep up with the amount of water entering and luckily another powerboat in the vicinity towed it to where it could be lifted right away.as simple a fix as the front-wheel drive boot of most cars except it happened to a 35 foot boat.the owner has since installed high=capicity diesel engine driven bilge pumps onboard in case it happens again. no rough waters, just mechanical failure on a bright calm cruise to bimini. fairwind and godspeed.
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Old 30-07-2014, 19:50   #36
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

we also homogenizied a 51CT crossing in december with water ,water ,water everywhere including the v-berth we had full of cheap beer{ beer in the bahamas in expensive} but it was no safety issue.a newbie couple on board asked if it was the same as crossing the atlantic? the captain/owner only replied that it depended on the atlantic crossing weather. i thought it was a great answer at the time. cheers.fairwinds and godspeed.
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Old 30-07-2014, 20:11   #37
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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Any and all manner of craft have crossed the pond or managed to circumnavigate. My reference to size suggests that crossing the stream in a boat of that size is not advisable.


You continue to refer to the size of the WWP as too small. Since you have set yourself as qualified to judge this I ask again what size in your opinion is not too small? You keep ducking that question but you keep bringing up the issue.



By the way, I know of plenty of larger boats with centerboards and minimal ballast. Are they not safe or does size make up for any and all evils?






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I don’t care what the weather window is. Safety is a paramount concern and small craft such as the Potter with her minimal ballast, centerboard and hung rudder is not what I would call qualified to cross because **** happens when you least expect it.
Yep, safety first, last and always. Safety is based on a number of factors including the right conditions for any boat and a small craft is safe in the right conditions.

Here's an analogy a small boat sailor told me once. Take a little, red and white plastic fishing bobber. Throw it out into the ocean in the middle of the worst storm in history. Even a 100' breaking wave will never crush or sink that little bobber. Apply that to a small boat. Built strongly and watertight it can survive anything, just like that little bobber. Conclusion, it's not the size that makes it unsinkable but how it's made. Might be horribly uncomfortable and the crew inside might be mangled after multiple rollovers but the boat would be floating.



The first time I crossed the Stream it was so flat calm you could see the constellations reflected in the water. Conditions were forecast and stayed that way for several days. So a WWP wouldn't be safe to crank up the old outboard and motor across in those conditions?
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Old 30-07-2014, 20:42   #38
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

most of us would say "december not advised" so you decide. 19 foot boat is your decision really. you probably gonna make it but you wont get any fame on CNN. Peruiod. go ahead. fairwinds and godspeed.
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Old 30-07-2014, 20:52   #39
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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Originally Posted by BZT54 View Post
We were totally surprised with the algae since the engine check and Racor did not show any signs of the nasty stuff. That primer lever saved the day because sailing her with just the main would have been forever. It was surprising how rapidly the waters calmed down as we approached the banks.

Any and all manner of craft have crossed the pond or managed to circumnavigate. My reference to size suggests that crossing the stream in a boat of that size is not advisable. I don’t care what the weather window is. Safety is a paramount concern and small craft such as the Potter with her minimal ballast, centerboard and hung rudder is not what I would call qualified to cross because **** happens when you least expect it.

Now please guys don’t tell me because the designer got lucky and crossed the pond she is a Blue Water Boat.

WEST WIGHT POTTER 19 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Extreme sea conditions can happen close to shore or offshore. I still say it's more about the skipper and reading the weather. The first potter I met was in Baja Ca Sur. He sailed down from San Diego. That's a week long trip in conditions that are more guaranteed to be big seas than a well timed GS crossing. Timing the weather I have yet to cross the stream from Fl to Bimini (and back) in more than smooth lake conditions.... both directions. Yet was caught once in the stream off Hatteras and wish I hadnt been! You just have to time 8 hours and not go unless it's right.
Schedule is the evil to be avoided. Trekka was a 21 ft plywood boat that rounded the world.
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Old 30-07-2014, 20:58   #40
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

as a reminder to self i have done many "december amd januasruary" crossings of the gulfsstream to the bahamas since 1980. some where started with "heavy warningss" coming in. have survived all. sure it got rough and wet but no problem really.vhowever i was never on a 19 foot boat. enoufgh said. anyone elase here want to comment about crosing on a 19 foot boat then just go right ahead. was on 51 foot sailvboat that was blown on beam ends etc. we survived no problem.19 foot boat is only a guess.fairwinds and godspeed.
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Old 30-07-2014, 23:09   #41
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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Sorry. Perhaps global weather patterns have been weird recently but that still doesn't mean that south FL to the Bahamas is subject to sudden, unpredictable, boat sinking storms. Hurricanes are not suddenly sneaking up on us and northers are not appearing off the coast without warning.



You're the one that brought up size. You said the OP's boat is too small. Since you made that judgment call I thought it a reasonable question to ask what isn't too small.




Of course. There's no question that a larger boat has an easier motion. I loved sailing my 65' steel ketch. It barely rocked in 4-6
seas. But until now motion was never the point you were pushing but the safety factor.
To repeat myself, the Potter based on her spec’s is too light to be considered for off shore work. Will she cross the stream on a given day, sure. Will the ride be enjoyable, doubt it.

“Here's an analogy a small boat sailor told me once. Take a little, red and white plastic fishing bobber. Throw it out into the ocean in the middle of the worst storm in history. Even a 100' breaking wave will never crush or sink that little bobber. Apply that to a small boat. Built strongly and watertight it can survive anything, just like that little bobber. Conclusion, it's not the size that makes it unsinkable but how it's made. Might be horribly uncomfortable and the crew inside might be mangled after multiple rollovers but the boat would be floating.”

Are you for real, …. “can survive anything”, please. I’m on a first name basis with Murphy and…… he’s going to look you up.

It is not the size of the boat but the motion. Comfortable motion in most inherent in full keel boats. The bigger the better. So in that respect size does matter. But don’t take my word for it.

See Thomm225 post and you pick your size.

Motion Comfort Ratio

The link below showing the “Comparison of Cruising Boats” look at “Comfort” and check the Rafiki 37’s ratio compared to others. My Slocum 37 is a modified Rafiki. Like I said, when I sail I like a comfortable ride.

Cruising the Sailing Vessel Phoenix: Parameters of Certain Cruising Sailboats

BZT
PS Are you running for something?
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Old 31-07-2014, 06:18   #42
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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To repeat myself, the Potter based on her spec’s is too light to be considered for off shore work. Will she cross the stream on a given day, sure. Will the ride be enjoyable, doubt it.

“Here's an analogy a small boat sailor told me once. Take a little, red and white plastic fishing bobber. Throw it out into the ocean in the middle of the worst storm in history. Even a 100' breaking wave will never crush or sink that little bobber. Apply that to a small boat. Built strongly and watertight it can survive anything, just like that little bobber. Conclusion, it's not the size that makes it unsinkable but how it's made. Might be horribly uncomfortable and the crew inside might be mangled after multiple rollovers but the boat would be floating.”

Are you for real, …. “can survive anything”, please. I’m on a first name basis with Murphy and…… he’s going to look you up.

It is not the size of the boat but the motion. Comfortable motion in most inherent in full keel boats. The bigger the better. So in that respect size does matter. But don’t take my word for it.

See Thomm225 post and you pick your size.

Motion Comfort Ratio

The link below showing the “Comparison of Cruising Boats” look at “Comfort” and check the Rafiki 37’s ratio compared to others. My Slocum 37 is a modified Rafiki. Like I said, when I sail I like a comfortable ride.

Cruising the Sailing Vessel Phoenix: Parameters of Certain Cruising Sailboats

BZT
PS Are you running for something?
First you say the boat is not safe. Then you say instead it's actually a matter of comfort. Then it's neither, it's Murphy.

I already agreed that a bigger boat will have an easier motion. That is so obvious that it doesn't even warrant mentioning so why do you have to keep arguing the point? By the way, comfortable motion is not inherent in any boat just because it has a full keel. It will depend on the overall hull design, displacement, center of gravity, fullness in the ends and more.

By the way, that wonderful post you recommend that calculates the motion comfort says "As the length and beam increases the motion comfort ratio will decrease" so according to your own reference a short, skinny boat would be the most comfortable. By the way, read the rest of the thread to get the rest of the story, beyond a simplistic mathematical formula that cannot reflect the real world performance of boats in the water.

And no I'm running for nothing. I'm just kind of stupid and cannot help myself when I see obvious misinformation. It's clear that in this case you are convinced of your expertise and do not even respond when I ask about the discrepancies in your arguments. I really have no more time to waste on this so feel free to have the last word.
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Old 31-07-2014, 06:27   #43
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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Originally Posted by BZT54 View Post
Motion Comfort Ratio

The link below showing the “Comparison of Cruising Boats” look at “Comfort” and check the Rafiki 37’s ratio compared to others. My Slocum 37 is a modified Rafiki. Like I said, when I sail I like a comfortable ride.

Cruising the Sailing Vessel Phoenix: Parameters of Certain Cruising Sailboats

BZT
PS Are you running for something?
And here is what Ted Brewer, the yacht designer who invented the comfort ratio said about it:

Quote:
This is a ratio that I dreamed up, tongue-in-cheek, as a measure of motion comfort but it has been widely accepted and, indeed, does provide a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type. It is based on the fact that the faster the motion the more upsetting it is to the average person. Given a wave of X height, the speed of the upward motion depends on the displacement of the yacht and the amount of waterline area that is acted upon. Greater displacement, or lesser WL area, gives a slower motion and more comfort for any given sea state.

Beam does enter into it as wider beam increases stability, increases WL area, and generates a faster reaction. The formula takes into account the displacement, the WL area, and adds a beam factor. The intention is to provide a means to compare the motion comfort of vessels of similar type and size, not to compare that of a Lightning class sloop with that of a husky 50 foot ketch.

The CR is : Displacement in pounds/ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x B1.333). Ratios will vary from 5.0 for a light daysailer to the high 60s for a super heavy vessel, such as a Colin Archer ketch. Moderate and successful ocean cruisers, such as the Valiant 40 and Whitby 42, will fall into the low-middle 30s range.

Do consider, though, that a sailing yacht heeled by a good breeze will have a much steadier motion than one bobbing up and down in light airs on left over swells from yesterday's blow; also that the typical summertime coastal cruiser will rarely encounter the wind and seas that an ocean going yacht will meet. Nor will one human stomach keep down what another stomach will handle with relish, or with mustard and pickles for that matter! It is all relative.
Emphasis added by me.

Fair winds,

Jesse
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Old 02-08-2014, 15:03   #44
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Re: Advisability sailing to bimini in december on a potter

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First you say the boat is not safe. Then you say instead it's actually a matter of comfort. Then it's neither, it's Murphy.

I already agreed that a bigger boat will have an easier motion. That is so obvious that it doesn't even warrant mentioning so why do you have to keep arguing the point? By the way, comfortable motion is not inherent in any boat just because it has a full keel. It will depend on the overall hull design, displacement, center of gravity, fullness in the ends and more.

By the way, that wonderful post you recommend that calculates the motion comfort says "As the length and beam increases the motion comfort ratio will decrease" so according to your own reference a short, skinny boat would be the most comfortable. By the way, read the rest of the thread to get the rest of the story, beyond a simplistic mathematical formula that cannot reflect the real world performance of boats in the water.

And no I'm running for nothing. I'm just kind of stupid and cannot help myself when I see obvious misinformation. It's clear that in this case you are convinced of your expertise and do not even respond when I ask about the discrepancies in your arguments. I really have no more time to waste on this so feel free to have the last word.
SkipMac, what is your point? I thought I made mine clear by saying the Potter is too small for offshore work because of her specs. In a seaway she will be like your bobber, tossed around and dangerous to anyone sailing her. But to infer, "will survive anything", is beyond common sense and is what I would consider a fools notion, that being whether she is built like a brick **** house or not.

If the OP decides to cross the stream hopefully he will get his weather window both ways. But like I said, this stunt is ill advised. The best thing to do is to fly into one of the islands and charter a boat. If money is an issue, save up.

I personally would never take a 19' day sailor across the stream regardless of weather because **** happens. You on the other hand encourage the OP that it can be done if he gets his weather window. I see that as irresponsible. This is where we disagree. Everything else is like JK n Smitty said, "...relative".
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Old 02-08-2014, 15:16   #45
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Re: Advisability Sailing to Bimini in December on a Potter

BZT54, I lived and sailed in south florida from the 1970's to 2004. You would be amazed at the number of small unseaworthy sailboats that crossed the stream and cruised the bahamas (before GPS!) and lived to tell about it. From my roost in coconut grove I met many of them.

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