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Old 13-12-2015, 19:38   #106
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I don't understand this question? We 'were' talking about colision courses not 'coming head on'?
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Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
Motor boat was on a 290 heading, the sailboat 180.
The vessels' headings are only part of the equation. Pastaga was at 5 kts, while What Else was going 20. This means that Pastaga was about 15 on the starboard bow of What Else. Go look at your bow, then look 15 to the right of that - that's more ahead than abeam.
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Old 13-12-2015, 19:54   #107
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Accident report

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The vessels' headings are only part of the equation. Pastaga was at 5 kts, while What Else was going 20. This means that Pastaga was about 15 on the starboard bow of What Else. Go look at your bow, then look 15 to the right of that - that's more ahead than abeam.

I have in laws that would argue with a wall.

It's not my stick.


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Old 13-12-2015, 19:58   #108
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
My dear friend, might I remind you of the manner in which you commented on my point -





You are confusing separate ideas. Rule 17(c) has no bearing on a 17(b) action - it only applies to rule 17(a)(ii). And it only applies to power driven vessels. In this particular situation it would be impossible for the sailboat to steer towards the stern of the other vessel, unless he was under power. The assertion was made that the colregs are moot because Pastaga could have pointed at What Else's stern. Presumably this was meant to occur early in the encounter such that it would be in accordance with 17(a)(ii). But it did not consider that such an action would be impossible while Pastaga was a sailing vessel, and contrary to the rules (17(c)) if Pastaga became a power-driven vessel.

When a rule 17(b) response becomes necessary, then there is no such restriction - collision is imminent and the overriding concern is a last-ditch effort at avoidance and failing that, mitigation of the resultant crunch. Regardless, you'll have an uphill battle trying to convince anyone that reducing the distance and increasing the closing speed (by turning towards the other vessel) is always the best way to do that.
I did not at any stage attack you personally. Nor would I. You do not need to be offensive to put your point forward.
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Old 13-12-2015, 19:59   #109
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
I have in laws that would argue with a wall.

It's not my stick.
There's no arguing the math. It's pretty basic geometry. Don't suppose that's your stick either?
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Old 13-12-2015, 20:12   #110
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I did not at any stage attack you personally. Nor would I. You do not need to be offensive to put your point forward.
You didn't offer an opposing viewpoint or make a logical argument against my statement - you just trashed it; said it was illogical and rubbish. That is every bit as offensive. Now you've just gone and made disparaging remarks about 44CC. Why don't you climb down off your high horse.
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Old 13-12-2015, 20:30   #111
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Re: Accident report

I think it's pretty clear that Pastaga was the stand on vessel, and that if the What Else had kept a proper watch, no contact would have occurred. Whether What Else's skipper is guilty of wrongful death and criminal negligence is to be determined.

It has been suggested that Pastaga had time before the event to tack, when he first saw the What Else. I bet the guy has nightmares about it. But there is no reason whatsoever that he should have tacked then. His reasonable expectation was that the What Else would stand clear. I think it is possible that he might have been able to luff up or heave to when the What Else first came clear of Ile Chevreau and he could see him, and that might have done the trick for him, but again, it is not the reasonable course of action, given awareness of Colregs.

It really is a dilemma, 'cause some places people behave unaware of the Colregs, so [as suggested above] it is unwise to put much trust in them for one's own collision avoidance practices, and yet, there are other places where the pros have to rely on us to behave as the "stand on" vessel. It shouldn't be situationally dependent, but perhaps the reality is that it is. If that is so, it puts a peculiar burden on those sailors from EU, who are extremely Colregs conscious, and have Colregs educated expectations, and who then venture towards the less civilized areas of the oceans.

I've been caught with this sort of expectation, sailing wing and wing, poled out heads'l, was run out of a narrow, marked channel by a large high speed motor yacht who had plenty of room to pass port to port, but didn't want to give me room. He taught me, never trust a power boat to do the right thing.

I had another good lesson in reading the accident report from when the Chinese vessel collided with Jessica Watson prior to her rtw adventure. Never trust the pros completely to do the right thing, because you don't know who's on watch and how well trained they are. Certain flagged vessels are more of a worry than others. This is actually one of the places AIS really helps, you can talk to them, and agree on a plan.

Cheers, guys,

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Old 13-12-2015, 20:49   #112
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Re: Accident report

Always a voice of reason and experience Ann.


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Old 13-12-2015, 23:29   #113
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Re: Accident report

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Yes so do most of us. 44 Cruisingcat seemed to think it was a head on incident though
No, but this isn't the only collision to have ever happened.


I was pointing out that to simply say "Steer for their stern" won't always work.
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Old 14-12-2015, 01:09   #114
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Re: Accident report

One of the issues here has been noted, but I'll have to say I might have done the same thing in those circumstances. The sailboat skipper waited too long before taking evasive action. This is why he gets a portion of the blame. Had he turned or heaved to earlier - then no collision.

But I'm certainly one the posters on this forum that thinks they know their colregs fairly well and I'll admit I have a tendency to ascribe a greater knowledge of the regs to bigger boats. The bigger the boat (ship) the more I tend to believe they will react as pros, since for most of them they will have to have some type of license and examination.

A boat the size of What Else would tend to have me believing that its skipper was a pro and they would be keeping an adequate look out.

I suspect this is why the sailboat skipper did not evade in time - his assumption was that the oncoming boat would certainly react according to the regs.

A lesson to be learned there for me.
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Old 14-12-2015, 01:24   #115
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Re: Accident report

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One of the issues here has been noted, but I'll have to say I might have done the same thing in those circumstances. The sailboat skipper waited too long before taking evasive action. This is why he gets a portion of the blame. Had he turned or heaved to earlier - then no collision.

But I'm certainly one the posters on this forum that thinks they know their colregs fairly well and I'll admit I have a tendency to ascribe a greater knowledge of the regs to bigger boats. The bigger the boat (ship) the more I tend to believe they will react as pros, since for most of them they will have to have some type of license and examination.

A boat the size of What Else would tend to have me believing that its skipper was a pro and they would be keeping an adequate look out.

I suspect this is why the sailboat skipper did not evade in time - his assumption was that the oncoming boat would certainly react according to they regs.

A lesson to be learned there for me.
It would be a normal and reasonable expectation. But a flawed one here in Australia. That size boat in Australia can be operated on nothing more than a speed boat license. Size doesn't equate to skills, training or qualifications.

However, this particular big vessel is a commercial vessel and as such, it should be expected that the skipper would do the right thing.
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Old 14-12-2015, 01:25   #116
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Re: Accident report

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No, but this isn't the only collision to have ever happened.


I was pointing out that to simply say "Steer for their stern" won't always work.
Well in that case I heartedly agree with your
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Old 14-12-2015, 01:52   #117
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Re: Accident report

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colreg relies on level of professionalism, especially from larger vessels . if that is not evident, as in above, or that ship that sunk in med when driver texting, then do not expect colreg to work. Punish offenders, including owner of that ship that allowed such level of unseaworthiness and trust may return.

However, as we all know, this will not happen.
With respect the COLREGS are very clear that it is ultimately both skippers' responsibility to avoid a collision. If two boats collide, both skippers are at fault. It really is clear. Anything after that is determining the %age split of responsibility for use in insurance, compensation and, in this case, legal proceedings...

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Old 14-12-2015, 04:06   #118
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Re: Accident report

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I was pointing out that to simply say "Steer for their stern" won't always work.
Quite right

And it wouldn't have worked in this situation either. Some people don't seem to appreciate that Pastaga was more or less in front of What Else from the beginning of their encounter.
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Old 14-12-2015, 04:12   #119
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Re: Accident report

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Quite right

And it wouldn't have worked in this situation either. Some people don't seem to appreciate that Pastaga was more or less in front of What Else from the beginning of their encounter.
Quite true. And coming on at 20 knots. The closing speed on this will be tremendous. 10 minutes out What else will be almost 3.5 nm away. depending on visibility, background etc the skipper of the Pastaga might not even have seen or descerned him to be a potential threat.

There is a good chance the Pastaga's skipper never realized he was going to get run down until it was way past too late
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Old 14-12-2015, 09:48   #120
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Re: Accident report

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Quite true. And coming on at 20 knots. The closing speed on this will be tremendous. 10 minutes out What else will be almost 3.5 nm away. depending on visibility, background etc the skipper of the Pastaga might not even have seen or descerned him to be a potential threat.

There is a good chance the Pastaga's skipper never realized he was going to get run down until it was way past too late
This is most likely true - The skipper of Pastaga underestimated the closing speeds and was tardy in turning to avoid a collision. But the key factor here is that he did turn and thus was following COLREGS (stand on then if needed take action to avoid a collision). This is why his actions were not held as a 'cause' of the collision.

The failure of the skipper of What Next to keep a proper lookout was found to be the 'sole cause' of the collision.

The signing of the COLREGS 'Treaty' in the USA (and I suspect all other countries - perhaps a few not) has caused the colregs to be signed into US law.

33 USC 1601-1608 ; 33 CFR 80,81,82 et al

The point being that we all (big and small, 'pro' or not) bound to follow colregs and will be judged by those laws.

It bothers me that in a post or two a few of us have turned the victim (Pastaga) into the cause of the accident. Sure, sure, sure - Pastaga could have done many things that would have resulted in no accident but that does not change the cause of the accident. They could have not gotten up that morning. They could have on first sighting changed course. They could have ... But could haves, would haves, do not change the fact that What Next was doing near 20 kt without a lookout and had 6 minutes to identify a crossing situation.

As has been noted the skipper of Pastaga will have to live with the loss of life and ask himself what he could have done better, so will the skipper of What Next. This is true but really a topic for another thread. The difference being the skipper of Pastaga will ask himself 'what could I have done differently' and the skipper of What Next will have to ask 'why did I do that'.
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