Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-12-2015, 02:26   #76
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,444
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
let me elaborate with driving example:

if i get a green light in crossroad and see driver not slowing down on the the other road, i will not proceed but wait until I see this guy is slowing down or passing red light.

this saved me accident twice. Be my guest, you believe all people always stop on red light. I do not and will not. So no break of rules as not starting immediately on green light is no offence.

Same approach with boating.

I agree with other poster that not keeping watch at 20 kn should attract severe punishment.
IMO, these are not analogous situations. In the automotive case, the action that you take (not immediately starting across when the light turns green) will not influence what the other driver is supposed to do... he is supposed to stop at the red light.

In the maritime case, the oncoming 'driver' anticipates that you will maintain course and speed (if that is what COLREGS demands) and maps his course accordingly. It is a multi-dimensional situation,whereas the driving one is really one dimensional: stop or go... there are no turns to port or starboard to avoid collision on a highway, only stop, slow down or continue at speed.

We have discussed this here on CF many times. Dockhead in particular has presented the case for adhering to COLREGS very well. Folks who ad hoc decide to make up there own rules confuse the hell out of oncoming mariners. In a one on one crossing, it isn't much of a problem, but when there are several vessels involved, adherence to the regs will help everyone to muddle through without crunching sounds.

The professionals and even us WAFIs will appreciate this!

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 02:43   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,094
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
IMO, these are not analogous situations. In the automotive case, the action that you take (not immediately starting across when the light turns green) will not influence what the other driver is supposed to do... he is supposed to stop at the red light.

In the maritime case, the oncoming 'driver' anticipates that you will maintain course and speed (if that is what COLREGS demands) and maps his course accordingly. It is a multi-dimensional situation,whereas the driving one is really one dimensional: stop or go... there are no turns to port or starboard to avoid collision on a highway, only stop, slow down or continue at speed.

We have discussed this here on CF many times. Dockhead in particular has presented the case for adhering to COLREGS very well. Folks who ad hoc decide to make up there own rules confuse the hell out of oncoming mariners. In a one on one crossing, it isn't much of a problem, but when there are several vessels involved, adherence to the regs will help everyone to muddle through without crunching sounds.

The professionals and even us WAFIs will appreciate this!

Jim

I get that. If commercial ship is the other boat, I will give it more time to prove, he is changing direction while I am continuing (assuming this correct action). If I see no response and still on collision course, I will simply make avoidance manoeuvre. And not wait till last second. I will do these actions very early, to avoid any closeness.

If you get 6 boats on same crash course, which happened to me , I will simply turn sharp away early and let other worry about 5 boats on same collision course. That is why always motors on in crowd.
__________________

__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 03:06   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,094
Re: Accident report

last weekend sailing in crowded harbour back and skiff hit cat nearby with long bowsprit directly in hull. Cat followed colreg rules. I have done usual avoid early manoeuvre.

You may know that outside hull can crack from such impact and let water inside hull walls and start process of rot that is very expensive to fix.

there seem to be no consequences for skiff sailors.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 03:09   #79
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
IMO, these are not analogous situations. In the automotive case, the action that you take (not immediately starting across when the light turns green) will not influence what the other driver is supposed to do... he is supposed to stop at the red light.

In the maritime case, the oncoming 'driver' anticipates that you will maintain course and speed (if that is what COLREGS demands) and maps his course accordingly. It is a multi-dimensional situation,whereas the driving one is really one dimensional: stop or go... there are no turns to port or starboard to avoid collision on a highway, only stop, slow down or continue at speed.

We have discussed this here on CF many times. Dockhead in particular has presented the case for adhering to COLREGS very well. Folks who ad hoc decide to make up there own rules confuse the hell out of oncoming mariners. In a one on one crossing, it isn't much of a problem, but when there are several vessels involved, adherence to the regs will help everyone to muddle through without crunching sounds.

The professionals and even us WAFIs will appreciate this!

Jim
IMO starting across the line when it turns green will in fact usually have an impact on the other driver. And driving is not and never should be just a stop and go situation. And if you ever do a defensive driving course, you will learn that pulling to the 'left' is always an option. Just don't pull to the right. If everyone drove a car like we 'should' be driving boats, there would be a lot less accidents. The Colregs emphasize defensive operating of the vessel the same as the road rules are meant to be learn't.

Of course, at least in this country, formal driving lessons, is as unusual as formal boating lessons. In all our states and territories, you can get any number of levels of vehicle license without have any formal training. Oddly, a number of states require a minor formal course to now operate a boat (with an engine)
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 07:40   #80
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
That's completely illogical

Your suggesting, that if he complies with 17(b) he then transgressors 17(c) because he's turned into a motor boat instead.. rubbish
It's only illogical if you're incapable of reading what I've actually written and make up some bizarre interpretation instead.

That hoary chestnut "just point at his stern" is usually considered for a rule 17(a)(ii) action, but would fail in this circumstance, because the wind was coming from that direction, making it impossible to follow that course as a sailboat. If he had chosen to fire up the engine and point at What Else's stern, then he would have broken rule 17(c). There are clear reasons why the rules tell you to not alter to port for a vessel on your port side. The rule does make the point "if the circumstances of the case admit" - that usually is taken to apply where other traffic or navigational hazards are present that would make a turn to starboard impossible.

Rule 17(b) implies that collision can't be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone, so the stand on vessel shall do whatever is required to avoid collision or lessen the impact of an inevitable one. While it might sometimes be the best option to turn to port, it is a very rare case. Turning towards the oncoming vessel increases the closing speed which decreases the time available to take action and likely increases the severity of the collision.

This point was brought up in the report.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 07:48   #81
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
The prime directive is avoiding collision. If it had been avoided, this discussion would likely not be be happening.

Read 17 again. "If circumstances admit"

Staying course and turning to starboard were not options.

And yes, I will crank the engine in a New York minute if vessel is bearing down on me and I need it to rabbit out of the way.
I have no problem with using the engine, but as I pointed out the rules strongly suggest not turning to port for a vessel to port. There are obvious reasons for this - they were discussed in the BEAMER report, and I've reiterated them. I've already commented on the "if circumstances admit" caveat. Please explain why you think a turn to starboard was(is) not an option?
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 08:07   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,439
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I have no problem with using the engine, but as I pointed out the rules strongly suggest not turning to port for a vessel to port. There are obvious reasons for this - they were discussed in the BEAMER report, and I've reiterated them. I've already commented on the "if circumstances admit" caveat. Please explain why you think a turn to starboard was(is) not an option?

According to the report he did turn to starboard.


Waiting on parts for the 4-154
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
Cap Erict3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 08:52   #83
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
According to the report he did turn to starboard.
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering why you said it's not an option? Obviously it was too little and too late, and we can assume he didn't fully comply with rule 8(d). He should have made the turn earlier or started his engine so he could bail out late. Still no good reason for him to point at the oncoming boat.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 10:04   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
if you ever do a defensive driving course, you will learn that pulling to the 'left' is always an option. Just don't pull to the right.
watch out when outside of Oz, we do drive on the wrong side over here :P
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 11:40   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,439
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering why you said it's not an option? Obviously it was too little and too late, and we can assume he didn't fully comply with rule 8(d). He should have made the turn earlier or started his engine so he could bail out late. Still no good reason for him to point at the oncoming boat.

Using that option caused the collision.

Had he turned toward the stern of the approaching vessel when first sighted he could have passed astern in a couple of minutes. He would have had eyes on for course changes. Reversing direction is the least likely change for the approaching vessel to make so going behind him was the best course.

It is a method I use constantly when meeting vessels coming on fast. Maybe not macho but prudent.

I consider the colregs a guide not a shield.


Waiting on parts for the 4-154
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
Cap Erict3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 12:09   #86
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
Using that option caused the collision.

What part of 'too little, too late' is confusing to you? Did you even read the BEAMER report - they say the exact same thing.

Had he turned toward the stern of the approaching vessel when first sighted he could have passed astern in a couple of minutes.

I suppose you're a mind-reader? You know for a fact that the 'give-way' vessel will not give-way and turn in that direction?

He would have had eyes on for course changes. Reversing direction is the least likely change for the approaching vessel to make so going behind him was the best course.

And the most likely action by the give-way vessel is a turn to starboard, right where your turn to port will put you on a head-on and closing faster than before. That's just awesome.

It is a method I use constantly when meeting vessels coming on fast. Maybe not macho but prudent.

Not prudent either.

I consider the colregs a guide not a shield.
To be used as a guide, you need to follow it a little.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 12:51   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Nice, France
Boat: Hunter Marine 38
Posts: 281
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
A few years ago here in Brittany, a motor boat running at 20kts rammed a small sailing boat and somebody was killed (again!). The motor boat was on autopilot while the owner tried to repair the cabin door. He was probably sober but certainly stupid.

Alain
This summer the airport in Nice (cote d'azur France) was closed after a motoryacht coming from Corsica (100 miles) ran up the dike structure surrounding the airport at full speed. They had to check the boat for explosives before opening up the airport again. 2 days later they closed the airport again for 2 hours during the crane operation to get the boat of the dike and on a trailor. Expensive operations for his insurer I think.
Later on I heard the reason for not keeping watch: He was very occupied with his girlfriend !!! Looks like the French have to keep up their reputation!
__________________
sailormed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 12:52   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,439
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
To be used as a guide, you need to follow it a little.

You seem intent on combining irrationality with insults. Good luck with that.


Waiting on parts for the 4-154
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
Cap Erict3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 13:12   #89
Registered User
 
autumnbreeze27's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cruising Mexico
Boat: 50' Herreshoff Ketch
Posts: 967
Re: Accident report

I'm late to the game and didn't read all the posts, but I thought it was funny they said how the other boat was registered in sweden and they aren't so strict on yacht design/paperwork there, as if that had something to do with why the boat sunk.

and maybe I read it wrong, but it sounded like the power boat had poor visibility, crappy controls (no rudders?? just joysticks and computer control?!), and the guy had iphones for navigation and other things (texting his friends)

Also funny to see that our boat has the same ancient Furuno GP30 GPS, although ours works, but it's not our primary GPS, I mainly use it for anchor watch.

Interesting read, thanks for posting, sorry about the loss of life and boat.
__________________
autumnbreeze27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2015, 13:19   #90
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
You seem intent on combining irrationality with insults. Good luck with that.

Seriously, dude? You made the snide comment about not using the colregs as a shield, and now you're going to whine that I insulted you? You'd also be the one advocating an action that is not only contrary to the rules, but is demonstrably hazardous, which is the reason colregs advises against it in the first place - but you call me irrational.

Feel free to keep playing chicken with faster vessels. As you say - good luck with that.
__________________

__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
accident

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Report by MAIB on RIB Milly accident poiu General Sailing Forum 14 10-02-2014 07:56
Farallones Accident/Fatalities - Final Report Chuteman General Sailing Forum 35 22-09-2012 14:04
2009 USCG Annual Accident Report fishwife Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 26-08-2010 00:38
Queen of Oak Bay report in - Accident rsn48 Off Topic Forum 3 29-10-2006 22:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.