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Old 10-12-2015, 14:27   #46
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Re: Accident report

This makes me think of a similar example in the Flying world.

A few years ago I was flying east up the Columbia Gorge in my Cessna at 90 knots when I spotted an F15 flying east directly at me at about 500 knots. I took evasive action as soon as I saw him but barely got my wings banked before he was on me.

Fortunately he saw me on his radar long before I suspect. He flew directly at me and banked off about 1/2 mile from me. I suspected he did it for fun just to shake me up a bit. We were not on the same freq. so could not raise him.

This made me realize that when the speeds of two vehicles that are vastly different the slow one has very little chance even if they take evasive action as soon as possible.

I would expect the differences in speed with these two boats was reasonably similar.
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Old 10-12-2015, 14:49   #47
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by taildragerdrive View Post
This makes me think of a similar example in the Flying world.

A few years ago I was flying east up the Columbia Gorge in my Cessna at 90 knots when I spotted an F15 flying east directly at me at about 500 knots. I took evasive action as soon as I saw him but barely got my wings banked before he was on me.

Fortunately he saw me on his radar long before I suspect. He flew directly at me and banked off about 1/2 mile from me. I suspected he did it for fun just to shake me up a bit. We were not on the same freq. so could not raise him.

This made me realize that when the speeds of two vehicles that are vastly different the slow one has very little chance even if they take evasive action as soon as possible.

I would expect the differences in speed with these two boats was reasonably similar.
Nothing similar at all.. no

Whilst I appreciate your attempt at explaining the convergence of two targets, there is very little similarity. At what you described you had a an exceptionally dangerous experience of a near miss with literally only seconds. And in fact at half a mile it sounds to me like your understating the seriousness of what you experienced.
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Old 10-12-2015, 14:53   #48
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Perhaps even more remarkably, according to the report 4.2.2, the superyacht "What Else?" had no functional GPS unit aboard, and the skipper was navigating solely using his smartphone, which was velcroed to the control console!!!

I don't see this being such a big deal. It's day light, on a day trip in a large probably known area. Not ideal for such an expensive craft, but not such a big deal. I doubt it would have added to the accident that occured.

Not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did.
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Old 10-12-2015, 18:36   #49
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Re: Accident report

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I don't see this being such a big deal. It's day light, on a day trip in a large probably known area. Not ideal for such an expensive craft, but not such a big deal. I doubt it would have added to the accident that occured.

Not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did.
The report specifically states that the captain's attention was drawn to the cellphone, as well as trim adjustments, for several minutes, while he checked the route etc. It states that this distraction was a major contributing factor to the accident, and it states that part of the reason for this is that, while it is common practise for professional captains to use tablet sized devices as backup navigation, it is not good practise to use such a small device as an iphone, as it means that far more attention must be diverted to the device, in order to effect zooming and scrolling since the screen is too small for effective navigation. So yes, it was indeed a contributing factor to not keeping a sufficient lookout, as the report specifically states.
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Old 10-12-2015, 22:05   #50
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I don't see this being such a big deal. It's day light, on a day trip in a large probably known area. Not ideal for such an expensive craft, but not such a big deal. I doubt it would have added to the accident that occured.

Not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did.
I must agree , ais ,gps ,all very nice but thinking that you cant manage a short familiar daylight trip with out staring at your miniature gps toy is unreasonable . Also regarding the loss of employment due to refusing to go with out a GPS, if a professional captain can't manage that trip with a chart and a hand bearing compass maybe he should be on shore
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Old 10-12-2015, 22:21   #51
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Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm
I don't see this being such a big deal. It's day light, on a day trip in a large probably known area. Not ideal for such an expensive craft, but not such a big deal. I doubt it would have added to the accident that occured.

Not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did.

The report specifically states that the captain's attention was drawn to the cellphone, as well as trim adjustments, for several minutes, while he checked the route etc. It states that this distraction was a major contributing factor to the accident, and it states that part of the reason for this is that, while it is common practise for professional captains to use tablet sized devices as backup navigation, it is not good practise to use such a small device as an iphone, as it means that far more attention must be diverted to the device, in order to effect zooming and scrolling since the screen is too small for effective navigation. So yes, it was indeed a contributing factor to not keeping a sufficient lookout, as the report specifically states.
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As I said, 'not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did' contribute to the accident.

I don't see him using an iphone or ipad as a big deal. Nor do I think it was even a contributing factor. That is a case of blaming your tools. Bottom line is, especially in such a fast vessel, he should have had his eyes outward.
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Old 10-12-2015, 22:59   #52
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Re: Accident report

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Bottom line is, especially in such a fast vessel, he should have had his eyes outward.
IMHO - no different than driving your car - keep your eyes on the road - whether or not its dry or wet.
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Old 10-12-2015, 23:00   #53
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Re: Accident report

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IMHO - no different than driving your car - keep your eyes on the road - whether or not its dry or wet.

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Old 10-12-2015, 23:20   #54
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Re: Accident report

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm
I don't see this being such a big deal. It's day light, on a day trip in a large probably known area. Not ideal for such an expensive craft, but not such a big deal. I doubt it would have added to the accident that occured.

Not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did.

The report specifically states that the captain's attention was drawn to the cellphone, as well as trim adjustments, for several minutes, while he checked the route etc. It states that this distraction was a major contributing factor to the accident, and it states that part of the reason for this is that, while it is common practise for professional captains to use tablet sized devices as backup navigation, it is not good practise to use such a small device as an iphone, as it means that far more attention must be diverted to the device, in order to effect zooming and scrolling since the screen is too small for effective navigation. So yes, it was indeed a contributing factor to not keeping a sufficient lookout, as the report specifically states.
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As I said, 'not keeping a sufficient lookout certainly did' contribute to the accident.

I don't see him using an iphone or ipad as a big deal. Nor do I think it was even a contributing factor. That is a case of blaming your tools. Bottom line is, especially in such a fast vessel, he should have had his eyes outward.
Well yes. It was the fundamental cause. And I agree that, while reference to charts is necessary for this somewhat complex hydrographic area, fiddling with an iphone is crazy while travelling at over 19 knots in what is one of the busiest leisure shipping zones in the Eastern Caribbean.

However it is ridiculous that this superyacht did not have adequate modern collision avoidance and navigation aids aboard. Capable of speeds likely exceeding 20 knots, this vessel should have been equipped with any and all equipment to reduce the obviously high risk of collision and indeed grounding.
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Old 11-12-2015, 00:33   #55
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Re: Accident report

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Well yes. It was the fundamental cause. And I agree that, while reference to charts is necessary for this somewhat complex hydrographic area, fiddling with an iphone is crazy while travelling at over 19 knots in what is one of the busiest leisure shipping zones in the Eastern Caribbean.

However it is ridiculous that this superyacht did not have adequate modern collision avoidance and navigation aids aboard. Capable of speeds likely exceeding 20 knots, this vessel should have been equipped with any and all equipment to reduce the obviously high risk of collision and indeed grounding.
Well, OK. you have put this into a local knowledge context which now makes much more sense to me. I wasn't aware it was a complex hydrographic area or a busy leisure shipping zone. In that case I can understand the criticism of not having a working chart plotter and for that matter not having an AIS. His eyes should not be diverted down to an iPhone then.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:27   #56
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Re: Accident report

I know those waters very well. The area is not particularly complex at all. The course of the powerboat (if viewed on a larger chart) shows that she would make a 15-20 degree course change on the autopilot after passing Ile Fourchue to make the passage between Ile Tintamarre and the northwest headland of St. Martin; or just south of Philipsburg if continuing on that course. There is clear water absent of any obstructions and little sailboat traffic once passing the Anse Colombier anchorage on St. Barths.
This means that once the autopilot is set on that course there is just boat traffic to take watch out for - big boat traffic such as megayachts, other powerboats or the St. Barths ferry; all of which broadcast on AIS. I've passed big boats such as this several times on the trip between St. Barths and St. Martin and I have never seen them deviate from their set course to avoid my sailboat or give us a comfortable separation and have felt their wash/wake many a time (the big St. Barths ferry being the exception).
So my gut feeling is that the crew did what seems to be customary, especially in well-known waters, and didn't keep a watch. The talk about looking at charts is to be taken with more than a grain of salt - those waters are deep and have no obstructions and there's just one large island to avoid halfway to Philipsburg and I know of no sailors who have sailed around that area, and especially no commercial captains of shallow draft powerboats, who will consult a chart after the 3rd or 4th trip on that passage.
Here's a picture taken around where the accident occurred, with "Zanshin" on course between Ile Fourchue and Anse Colombier (looking back at St. Barths)
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:37   #57
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Re: Accident report

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I know those waters very well. The area is not particularly complex at all. The course of the powerboat (if viewed on a larger chart) shows that she would make a 15-20 degree course change on the autopilot after passing Ile Fourchue to make the passage between Ile Tintamarre and the northwest headland of St. Martin; or just south of Philipsburg if continuing on that course. There is clear water absent of any obstructions and little sailboat traffic once passing the Anse Colombier anchorage on St. Barths.
This means that once the autopilot is set on that course there is just boat traffic to take watch out for - big boat traffic such as megayachts, other powerboats or the St. Barths ferry; all of which broadcast on AIS. I've passed big boats such as this several times on the trip between St. Barths and St. Martin and I have never seen them deviate from their set course to avoid my sailboat or give us a comfortable separation and have felt their wash/wake many a time (the big St. Barths ferry being the exception).
So my gut feeling is that the crew did what seems to be customary, especially in well-known waters, and didn't keep a watch. The talk about looking at charts is to be taken with more than a grain of salt - those waters are deep and have no obstructions and there's just one large island to avoid halfway to Philipsburg and I know of no sailors who have sailed around that area, and especially no commercial captains of shallow draft powerboats, who will consult a chart after the 3rd or 4th trip on that passage.
Here's a picture taken around where the accident occurred, with "Zanshin" on course between Ile Fourchue and Anse Colombier (looking back at St. Barths)
Ahhhh the soup thickens
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Old 11-12-2015, 13:43   #58
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Re: Accident report

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However it is ridiculous that this superyacht did not have adequate modern collision avoidance and navigation aids aboard. Capable of speeds likely exceeding 20 knots, this vessel should have been equipped with any and all equipment to reduce the obviously high risk of collision and indeed grounding.
Driving the superyacht at 20 knots while using the smartphone FOR ANYTHING seems analagous to driving on the highway and texting--which is flat out illegal many places!
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Old 11-12-2015, 14:08   #59
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Re: Accident report

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Driving the superyacht at 20 knots while using the smartphone FOR ANYTHING seems analagous to driving on the highway and texting--which is flat out illegal many places!
I think that depends on the area, traffic, the risk.

It's nothing like driving a car. You can't run off the road at all in a split second that it takes to send a text
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Old 12-12-2015, 02:14   #60
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Re: Accident report

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I think that depends on the area, traffic, the risk.

It's nothing like driving a car. You can't run off the road at all in a split second that it takes to send a text
Quite right, RC, it's not the time it takes to send it, but the time it takes to compose it!
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