Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-12-2015, 16:14   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,707
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
You are already discussing Colregs. Everyone is.

The main responsibility lay with the power boat skipper. He failed to keep a look out, he failed to give way to the sail boat. The sail boat skipper simply misjudged and assumed too much and his minor error was catastropic.
Spot on!

And I'm sure we've all made similar misjudgements in the past, but fortunately without the catastrophic consequences.
__________________

__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 11:08   #32
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I had a megayacht coming up behind me at 20 knots off of Miami last year. I was tracking him on ais with a CPA of 6-20 feet at 2 miles astern. He finally answered my hail at 1 mile. He had not seen me before i raised him on the radio. His Comment "I only see a white light, I don't see your running lights". You would think that a megayacht would have a professional at the helm, and a professional would know that you would only see a white light (or maybe 2 white lights) approaching a boat from the stern.
Not only doesn't know lights, but not using AIS? Horrifying.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 11:21   #33
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
On a couple of other threads here the mentality of power boaters is discussed and also on another thread the use of auto pilots and the implied lack of need to be at the helm of the boat is promoted and it seems especially those sailing cats that have the helm out in the open.When I say at the helm I mean exactly that but not necessarily hand steering.
As to the mentality I can only comment I personally have experienced more bad than good with power boat operators big ,small ,private and commercially operated.In this country the wakes of the bigger boats operated by people who have zero consideration of other water users really are becoming a problem.
The auto pilot and no one at the helm situation also appears from my observation to be a growing issue and especially on the bigger power boats three times in the last 6 months when sailing in very open water I have had to change course for boats approaching from head on and astern doing around 20 knots twice with no one visible and the third time the idiot skipper had the hide to wave as we scrambled out of his way with sails luffing and bracing for the 1 metre plus bow wave .
I'm not knocking power boats as I have had a few and have started thinking about buying another when cruising under sail becomes too physically challenging for us.
In UK waters, I have had remarkably pleasant experiences with power boaters. They tend to be more careful and more considerate than sailors, and the average skill level is high. One difference to U.S. power boaters is that they usually have an RYC qualification and so a fair amount of training.

Worse experiences over here are with sailors, specifically racers, who often sail in a hyper-aggressive manner, crossing with inches to spare, pitching hysterical fits if you fail to give way when they expect you to, tacking under your bows, etc. Not all of them, or even most of them, but it happens pretty often in the Solent.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 11:26   #34
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
As in many things in life, it took 2 to collide. The sailboat skipper is certainly at fault.

Changing course for the other vessels stern in open water makes discussion of the colregs moot.


I sleep better on the hook
I was run into while on the hook!

Changing course for other vessels' stern in open water (done in a timely, appropriate manner) does NOT make discussion of COLREGS moot -- on the contrary, that IS the COLREGS. You're supposed to avoid collisions, period -- the highest and most sacred part of the COLREGS, from which all the other rules flow.

The fact that the sailor in this case is likely to have some part of the fault in the matter doesn't prove by itself that he was stupid or negligent. We don't have enough facts to know what the situation looked like from his point of view. And in any case, there but for the grace of God go I. As someone pointed out above, it is devilishly difficult to get it right -- to react early enough -- when you're dealing with a much faster vessel.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 11:28   #35
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Spot on!

And I'm sure we've all made similar misjudgements in the past, but fortunately without the catastrophic consequences.
I also agree with Rustic's post, with the sole exception of the word "minor".
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 08:03   #36
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,180
Re: Accident report

Thanks for posting up that report, tragic accident, but one from which we can all learn lessons.
The slow speed of the sail boat, and the fact that the boat virtually stalled after making the turn to starboard is something we all need to be aware of, and given that our visual distance to the horizon on a good day is only a few miles, we need to quickly assess the situation as soon as another boat is sighted, especially one moving at high speed.

I hope the owners of the power boat take up the recommendations made in the report.
__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 10:18   #37
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,936
Images: 1
Re: Accident report

Assessing the potetenial collision probibilities of a boat coming at almost 20 knots can be difficult. Although generally we can tell it will be close.

Certainly the power boat skipper here bears the brunt of all blame/responsibility. The sailboat skipper carries some blame simply because the collision occurred and he didn't practice avoidance in time.

Having had a couple of close calls in my time - there but for the grace of god go I.

It can happen to anyone - simply because we look at a boat that size and think "he's got to be a pro"

NO AIS signal from a boat that size should have put the sailboat skipper on heightened awareness.

"Why no AIS?"

Maybe the damned thing is stolen
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 12:39   #38
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,666
Re: Accident report

Not necessarily stolen at all. Malfunction--heard ships report that. Or someone turned off the circuit breaker to it accidentally. Not worth jumping to conclusions about, too many possible reasons. It is that just because there are agreements in place doesn't mean everybody conforms to them. The way of the world.

The price of life may be eternal vigilance....which is sort of what the Colregs demand.
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 22:33   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
Re: Accident report

So today we were sailing DDW in very light breeze - around 3 knots, boatspeed only around 1.5 knots, (good thing we had tide with us.) when a big flybridge game fishing boat came up behind us at high speed.


I thought - if he doesn't avoid us, we've got buckleys chance of getting out of his way.


And to his credit, he not only turned early to show his intentions, but he also slowed down when he was close and passed us with very little wake.


Much appreciated!
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 22:59   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,444
Re: Accident report

I can't speak for the region where this accident occurred, but where I've sailed, it isn't uncommon for large m/v to come unnecessarily close when passing by a sailing yacht. In fact, there has been a recent thread here on CF discussing this phenomenon.

Given this unfortunate practice, I can see myself not worrying much as this situation unfolded. With the disparity of speeds, it is all too easy to wait too long before deciding that one should abandon the "stand on" attitude and try to escape, as this poor fellow did. To place any significant blame on the yacht seems kinda harsh to me.

And to say that the lack of an AIS signal should have alerted him... why is that so? There are still lots of biggish m/v without AIS transceivers, and not all of them are set on auto pilot and on a collision course.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 22:59   #41
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I had a megayacht coming up behind me at 20 knots off of Miami last year. I was tracking him on ais with a CPA of 6-20 feet at 2 miles astern. He finally answered my hail at 1 mile. He had not seen me before i raised him on the radio. His Comment "I only see a white light, I don't see your running lights". You would think that a megayacht would have a professional at the helm, and a professional would know that you would only see a white light (or maybe 2 white lights) approaching a boat from the stern.
I had the same thing happen 300 miles West of Senegal a few years back. Was rather a famous megayacht (power) whose name escapes me just now but begins with "L". If I can remember or be prompted I may be able to find the photo I took of the AIS at that time. Idiot a the helm was likely watching a movie with headphones on. I hailed and hailed him and finally got an answer when he was 50 meters away abeam, but would have been on top of me had I not already taken avoiding action.

The incident in this case is worse not only because of the outcome, but because the waters around St. Barths are very crowded with leisure boats, fishers, and fast ferrys. No excuse possible.

Given that "What Else?" was en route St. Barths to St. Martin (a VERY busy route, and a short one!) and that Partaga is canary yellow… this amounts to criminal negligence without any doubt in my view.
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 23:14   #42
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Accident report

For those talking power vs. sail, it should be noted that of the 58 year old French skipper of "What Else?" the report states:

"Il pratique régulièrement la navigation à la voile."

Meaning he is a habitual sailor of sailboats.
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 23:27   #43
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Accident report

Extraordinarily, in section 4.2.1 it is made clear that the superyacht "What Else?", travelling at 19.5 knots in a busy waterway, was not equipped with AIS! "Pastaga" was, but it is unclear whether it was turned on. In any case it would have been useless in this situation. I am very surprised that such a fast, expensive, modern yacht did not have AIS! All the more reason for the Mark I Eyeball to have been in constant use, preferably with binocular aid and bearing compass.
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 23:31   #44
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Accident report

Perhaps even more remarkably, according to the report 4.2.2, the superyacht "What Else?" had no functional GPS unit aboard, and the skipper was navigating solely using his smartphone, which was velcroed to the control console!!!

__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2015, 13:39   #45
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,666
Re: Accident report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Perhaps even more remarkably, according to the report 4.2.2, the superyacht "What Else?" had no functional GPS unit aboard, and the skipper was navigating solely using his smartphone, which was velcroed to the control console!!!

It would take courage to not sail, though. Your boss might fire you. I am not saying he shouldn't have said, "no, the boat's not properly prepared. I won't sail her. Make other arrangements for the passengers." Just saying that it might be a rare individual indeed with that level of professionalism. Mostly, I think professional mariners are viewed as eminently replaceable by their employers. Am I wrong?

Now, however, I think Pastaga's skipper might have a good legal claim if he wants to sue: wrongful death of his significant other, as well as loss of his boat. If he seeks legal advice, we may hear more of this incident.

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
accident

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Report by MAIB on RIB Milly accident poiu General Sailing Forum 14 10-02-2014 07:56
Farallones Accident/Fatalities - Final Report Chuteman General Sailing Forum 35 22-09-2012 14:04
2009 USCG Annual Accident Report fishwife Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 26-08-2010 00:38
Queen of Oak Bay report in - Accident rsn48 Off Topic Forum 3 29-10-2006 22:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.