Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

[rgscpat]

Nice to see that Jopie Helsen came back last year for his sixth Isla Mujeres race and his Jade won its class and beat all the other monohulls....

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by John A

What does the USCG do with a boat far at sea after they've removed the drugs and crew and don't want to tow it for two hundred miles?

Depends...some are towed but often the old crappy ones are often sunk by gunfire...but a lot of hoops have to be jumped through.

That's a policy that has changed off and on...could change in the blink of a judges eye today.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by John A

What does the USCG do with a boat far at sea after they've removed the drugs and crew and don't want to tow it for two hundred miles?

Put a prize crew aboard her?

[goboatingnow]

Today, it seems that many people abandon ship when there's nothing major wrong, but they are tired, scared, and push the panic button. Of course, there did not used to be such ubiquitous possibility of rescue.

I guess, if you look at the whole tradition, you see the advice, "climb into the liferaft when you have to step up to do it", and before liferafts, those vessels went down with all hands. Scuttling became the tradition and/or standard before life rafts and AAA for boats.

I really have little time for this "salty dog advice"nonsense. I am aware of 3 situations where a sailing boat was abandoned and I know the people involved. I would be very very reluctant to criticise people for seeking rescue.

Whether there is the potential for rescue or not , does not in my mind, inform the crew whether to seek it. In many cases the rescue is more dangerous then remaining on the boat, moat want to be rescue because they simply beleive they will die otherwise or perhaps they have lost complete confidence in the 'nut on the wheel'

Scuttling became the tradition and/or standard before life rafts and AAA for boats

back that up with facts. most wooden boats sank, thats not the same as scuttling her

"climb into the liferaft when you have to step up to do it", and before liferafts, those vessels went down with all hands

Yes , their dead, theres nothing honourable about being dead. ( Not to mention that the Rescue services have been active long before life rafts)

And that cliché, is just that a tired mis-informed cliché.

Today, it seems that many people abandon ship when there's nothing major wrong,

Really on what basis do you make that assertion , merely that the boat survived. Have you been in a situation where the inside was breaking up , ever have a battery break loose ( no we didnt abandon, but it came close)

Tell me what YOU would do , where a crewman becomes injured in a small boat. Sail on and hope for the best ( see poor John Thompson in a previous ARC for reference) . what should a skipper do when a "leisure" crew simply want to press the button and be taken off. ( maybe youd have a round of 'floggin')

Really , sail first , then skip the clichés. Blondie Haslar was an idiot in that respect.

dave

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think the boat under discussion is probably Petersburg's Jopie Helsen's modified 47 foot Hunter named Jade CruChu. Helsen and his crew were returning after completing the Isla Mujeres race and left on Friday 30th April 2010.

To summarise: On Saturday the 1st of May the boat lost its rudder in 10 foot seas and 30 knots winds. The EPIRB was activated on the 2nd of May. On Monday 3rd of May a boat patrolling the central Gulf of Mexico tried towing it with the crew on board, but the trip became too uncomfortable and on Wednesday 5th of May the exhausted crew were transferred to the patrol boat. They had spend 5 days on board after the loss of the rudder. The tow could not proceed and a salvage operator towed the boat back to St. Petersburg in the next day or two.

These two reports were published in the Tampa Bay Times:

Sailing: Returning sailboat in Isla Mujeres race becomes disabled | Tampa Bay Times

Skipper's cool head, preparation save sailing crew from dire straits | Tampa Bay Times

There can't be much secrecy involved if the owner/skipper of the yacht was prepared to give interviews about the event.

The article did not mention any instructions given to scuttle the boat, nor did it mention transponder frequencies being changed, but perhaps psneeld could use his contacts to find out a few more details for us. The story is of interest .

The "other" event happened a much longer time ago as far as I can tell...maybe more than a year was when the first time it was brought up let alone when it actually happened.

This one seems pretty normal...slightly damaged boat with a crew who likes to race but maybe not REALLY cruise...hit's the EPIRB and calls the salvage company to go do the heavy lifting. Doubt there's too much to be learned unless the shipper was VERY specific and VERY good in estimating wind/waves and truthful in giving a complete account.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

You know, you don't seem like pleasant person when you flat-out call someone a liar. It's not a nice trait. So if it was all over the media, are you going to go look for it?

I haven't misused this forum. The post was on topic. YOU choose not to believe it -- even though you looked in the Coast Guard Regs and could see how it might unfold that way?

You want to be Columbo, that's all.

Let's get this straight. I DON'T COME IN HERE TO LIE. I don't need to. I have plenty of true stories. You take your boat out 3 times a week for five years starting out as a beginner and you'll have plenty of stories to tell, too.

Here's what I think (tee hee!) I think that tax evaders assume that everyone cheats on their taxes. I think married people who are unfaithful think all married people act that way. I think parents who fail to discipline their children think everyone is that way. I think lazy people think everyone is lazy.

And I think people who think other people lie, lie themselves.

Raku - some of us have issues with creditability. You have many "friends" or "neighbors" in your marina who have had a multitude of highly unusual accidents happen to them.
We get the impression that you are surrounded by "nautical nincompoops" or "maritime morons".

I have, through my, job, contact with many thousands of sailors. I get copies of every single reported accident that happens in this country. I also talk to many hundreds of sailors each year, rank beginners as well as extremely seasoned veterans, not mention that I have many, many sailing friends (and acquaintances).

Either everyone in this country is a much better sailor than the people you know, or else your friends and acquaintances are just damn unlucky beyond belief

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

'a monster wave snapped the rudder off their sailboat, '

Hmmmm... not a 'rouge' wave but a monster wave .... golleee....

Now moving right along.... about 12 years ago a Hunter came ashore near where I was living at the time.... the rudder had 'snapped off' when she came ashore.. I couldn't believe my eyes... the rudder stock was a GRP 'shell' filled with foam..... I kid you not.

I don't know anything about rudder design. I had one snap off and one bend 30º. I know Jopie had a catsastrophic failure of his although I don't know if it floated away (his boat design started with a Hunter hull), and I know someone else who had a major failure of a Hunter rudder, on a 34'.

And I never said either rouge or rogue. What I said was rough seas.

The part about the EPIRB was told privately, not in the media. It won't be in the CG report. I have since acknowledged that I may not have understood what he said about the transponder. it's possible he just turned it on again.

Regarding the boat design, I just find it interesting that I have not heard of the rig coming down, but now I've heard of five rudder failures, not that that's pertinent to this thread.

Jopie is a prominent member of the local sailing community and I had hoped no one would do this just out of good taste, but there ya go. His boat's name is Jade, and he came very close to winning the Isla Mujeres race the last time it was run.

This place has no class and a terrible tendency to try to hunt out weak points and try to feast on them like nasty little dinosaurs on Wayne Knight.

Seaworthy Lass has put an end to it this time, but the tendency is still there. Well, no. Probably something else will be picked on. I still say it will still be going Thursday night.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

Nice to see that Jopie Helsen came back last year for his sixth Isla Mujeres race and his Jade won its class and beat all the other monohulls....

He came very close to winning. I know some of his crew -- those people I know a lot better than Jopie, and I know *exactly* why he didn't win the race last year.

How the fact that his rudder snapped makes Jopie a bad sailor, esp. after last year's performance, is beyond me.

Why someone here doesn't grasp that "boat comes out, boat comes back" is something of little interest and nothing I'd learn from is beyond me.

Why anyone would think that good sailors never make a mistake is beyond me.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Depends...some are towed but often the old crappy ones are often sunk by gunfire...but a lot of hoops have to be jumped through.

That's a policy that has changed off and on...could change in the blink of a judges eye today.

But you were so certain he wasn't asked to go below and open his seacocks this time ...

That's what started all of this -- you didn't believe that, and I didn't talk about a transponder in an expert way. Bunch of vultures.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Put a prize crew aboard her?

They HAD a prize crew aboard her. The captain called for help because that prize crew was in danger. We'll never know where the boat would have ended up because he saved is crew, and then he saved his boat.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by psneeld

The "other" event happened a much longer time ago as far as I can tell...maybe more than a year was when the first time it was brought up let alone when it actually happened.

This one seems pretty normal...slightly damaged boat with a crew who likes to race but maybe not REALLY cruise...hit's the EPIRB and calls the salvage company to go do the heavy lifting. Doubt there's too much to be learned unless the shipper was VERY specific and VERY good in estimating wind/waves and truthful in giving a complete account.

I think the thing to learn is to respect the ocean. It would be very hard for the captain to lie about it because there was crew aboard. As far as I could tell they all agreed with the recounting I heard.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But you were so certain he wasn't asked to go below and open his seacocks this time ...

That's what started all of this -- you didn't believe that, and I didn't talk about a transponder in an expert way. Bunch of vultures.

The policy I'm talking about is sinking a vessel that is evidence...please keep up...other policies won't change at the whim of the court system.

The post I was referring to by you from a long time ago was 11/11/2011 (believe me I have a good memory and do my homework before I post)

here it is... (post#28 http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d-71399-2.html)

"In fact the coast guard often requires that.

I know one guy who was told to do that by the CG. He dutifully went below, but instead of opening seacocks, he set up a radio beacon. He was back to the boat within 24 hours and saved it. "

It wasn't from just recently as in those new articles....

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by psneeld

it's the kind of story that gets pecked at..especially when there's no secondary verification...it's WAY out of the ordinary..and the reporting source has stated that the original source is unapproachable for any verification.

well if you want someone to believe you...but I already can imagine your response to that statement....

I can probably verify the story...do you have a name?, boat name? approximate date?...approximate location?...anything? I'll be glad to see if I can find the facts surrounding the story.

Oh look. It turned out to be true. I bet i won't get a single apology.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Oh look. It turned out to be true. I bet i won't get a single apology.

please refer to my last post...

here's from your post #54 of the same thread 11/11/2011....

He left the boat because he had to in order to get his crew to safety. The CG required that all leave. They also told him to scuttle his boat so it would not become a navigation hazard.

He did not do that. He set a beacon on a rarely used frequency, and went back the next day with a trawler or something, found his boat, and saved it.

I don't imagine the CG would have liked it. I'm pretty sure the CG doesn't know.


Your post #24 from this thread....

"Oh I know exactly who it is and know him personally. However, I don't have his permission to blab his name all ovver the Internet.

I don't know why the Coasties INSISTED he come, but they did, and they told him to scuttle his boat. Instead he set his transponder so he could come back and get it.

Since I know him and don't know you, i'm going to believe him. You believe whatever you care to. "

Wow..you know 2 boaters that were forced to leave their vessel as ordered by the USCG and fiddled with electronics..and had something to do with scuttling their boat...wow....interesting....

[John A]

I'd suggest that some of you should back away from your computers and go cruising! I found that cynicism and theories were replaced by reality, and there was a general acceptance of another persons opinions.

I miss it!