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Old 27-08-2013, 20:01   #61
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
If I had a *real life* friend who felt he or she had to verify something I'd said, well, that person wouldn't be a friend any more.

I don't care who believes me or who does not. There are people here who are wanna be Columbos, and who think it's their mission online to "catch the liars."

It's boorish behavior, but this being the internet, they can find companions who go along with such absurd behavior -- behavior that simply would not be tolerated in real life.

You think I wouldn't put this guy's name out there -- but I'd name his boat? So you can -- what? Invade his life via the Internet? Any information I gave you CLEARLY would be misused.

It's a story. I heard it first hand. I know for a fact that he left his boat, rudderless and adrift, in the Gulf of Mexico, and that when the Coast Guard got him on shore, he hired a boat and used its transponder (and other information, he had lat and long of course but no point to stating those things) to retrieve it.

This thread has taken a 90 turn from 'abandoning ship' to 'prove Raku is a liar.' That's the goal now, and anything more I said (not that I would) would be twisted to meet that goal.

Another time it would be someone else. We've sat here with minimal information and I've *seen* people make long lists of what the person should have done (and PRESUMABLY didn't do, emphasis on presumably).

Thursday night this will still be going on, with people still asking for information that IMO would violate this man's expectation of reasonably privacy.

In real life we can just cross the street and not bother with it.
Predicted that one...."don't care who believes me or not"... that just cracks me up.....

Then why post it if you can't substantiate it......never mind I know the answer there too....

Not provide his name on the internet?...well if he was plucked from his boat by the USCG...then his name, the boat name and the circumstances abut the rescue were all over the newspapers and media...probably even in Soundings magazine...talking about misusing info (by not substantiating it but repeatedly using it in this forum as an example)...geeeezzzzz....

The only thing with more holes in it than this story is probably his boat.

These kinds of posts are so predictable in these forums...
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:12   #62
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Predicted that one...."don't care who believes me or not"... that just cracks me up.....

Then why post it if you can't substantiate it......never mind I know the answer there too....

Not provide his name on the internet?...well if he was plucked from his boat by the USCG...then his name, the boat name and the circumstances abut the rescue were all over the newspapers and media...probably even in Soundings magazine...talking about misusing info (by not substantiating it but repeatedly using it in this forum as an example)...geeeezzzzz....

The only thing with more holes in it than this story is probably his boat.

These kinds of posts are so predictable in these forums...

You know, you don't seem like pleasant person when you flat-out call someone a liar. It's not a nice trait. So if it was all over the media, are you going to go look for it?

I haven't misused this forum. The post was on topic. YOU choose not to believe it -- even though you looked in the Coast Guard Regs and could see how it might unfold that way?

You want to be Columbo, that's all.

Let's get this straight. I DON'T COME IN HERE TO LIE. I don't need to. I have plenty of true stories. You take your boat out 3 times a week for five years starting out as a beginner and you'll have plenty of stories to tell, too.

Here's what I think (tee hee!) I think that tax evaders assume that everyone cheats on their taxes. I think married people who are unfaithful think all married people act that way. I think parents who fail to discipline their children think everyone is that way. I think lazy people think everyone is lazy.

And I think people who think other people lie, lie themselves.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:15   #63
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

PS -- it really doesn't matter who believes me and who doesn't. I don't respect those who think I came in here to yank your leg, but I know whose information I trust and whose I don't, and that's what I'm here for.

For instance, I note that you have continued to pound on me (why? to make me confess? Oh PLEASE turn that bright light off) but ignored my question about drogues.

That's a choice you made, and it doesn't reflect on me. With luck, someone who thinks all this pseudo-detective stuff is as tiresome as I do will offer an opinion, or an anecdote, or first-hand experience that might be useful.

It isn't just me as the target. This whole board is awash with pseudo-detective work.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:19   #64
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

As I said...the incident was news...and was most likely reported and certainly available under the Freedom Of Information Act from the USCG....saying you are protecting his privacy isn't really truthful now..is it?????

If it's such a landmark issue to people who've been around the block and then some...at least I'm curious so I can arm myself with solid info (as opposed to "someone's story") if ever in the same situation.

If we come here to learn...having factual info or the opinions of tried and true mariners would be helpful.

If you knew more about boating you would know your question can't be answered...yes boats can be controlled with drogues...people have posted that many times on here...

But a specific boat in specific conditions may be unpredictable in it's response to steering drogues....however most would try and if they knew how to do so. If the resistance is too great...reduce it or use different drogues.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:28   #65
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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As I said...the incident was news...and was most likely reported and certainly available under the Freedom Of Information Act from the USCG....saying you are protecting his privacy isn't really truthful now..is it?????

If it's such a landmark issue to people who've been around the block and then some...at least I'm curious so I can arm myself with solid info (as opposed to "someone's story") if ever in the same situation.

If we come here to learn...having factual info or the opinions of tried and true mariners would be helpful.

See? You aren't talking about sailing, or cruising, or anything else now except trying to prove someone a liar.

Apparently, I *am* protecting his privacy, because I haven't seen you come up with anything accurate about it on your own. You don't know what year to search, for instance. Big job that, and it actually didn't get a lot of coverage in the media (another event in the race wildly overshadowed his incident, but no, I'm not going to tell you that, either.)

"If we are here to learn?" But we're not, are we -- not right now. If you were hear to learn -- or teach -- you would have something to say about the drogues. See, that was *my* little test. You have yours; I have mine.

I have no idea what you mean about "such a landmark issue."

There will always be holes in the story, because it didn't happen to me. But amazingly, when the fellow was telling the story to a bunch of very acomplished sailors -- I was along for the ride, as they say -- not one person hearing his story called it BS, or called him a liar, or questioned details. No one tried to play detective and prove him out on anything. It was actually ... quite civil.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:37   #66
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

The story is widely known within my circle of friends and acquaintances. I'm not going to sit here and suggest that I was gullible and that this guy made it up. And, he wasn't telling it to *just me.* There were others there, some who were in the same race. Believe me, he has no need to impress me, and would not get away with a big cock-and-bull story. He isn't just some stray cat that wandered in, you know.

You don't have to believe it, but do not expect me to sit here and say it was BS. It happened. I need no "graceful way out." I call BS on this little chicken-plucking episode, and suggest that it's the chicken-pluckers (also known as crow-pickers) who need a graceful way out.
I'm not suggesting it didn't happen just that the person telling the story embellished it -- to you and others. I presume there were no witnesses. At the risk of coming under fire, think about the story and the male ego, I worked in a male dominated field my entire career -- I won't say I understand it, but I know the male ego can (in some cases) be very delicate.

IMHO, it is foolish to defend a story from an acquaintance. You do not know the person well, so how can you say it is not BS? People here are presenting reasonable facts that counter the story, why not consider another alternative?

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Old 27-08-2013, 20:41   #67
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
As I said...the incident was news...and was most likely reported and certainly available under the Freedom Of Information Act from the USCG....saying you are protecting his privacy isn't really truthful now..is it?????

If it's such a landmark issue to people who've been around the block and then some...at least I'm curious so I can arm myself with solid info (as opposed to "someone's story") if ever in the same situation.

If we come here to learn...having factual info or the opinions of tried and true mariners would be helpful.

If you knew more about boating you would know your question can't be answered...yes boats can be controlled with drogues...people have posted that many times on here...

But a specific boat in specific conditions may be unpredictable in it's response to steering drogues....however most would try and if they knew how to do so. If the resistance is too great...reduce it or use different drogues.
reposted with added info about drogues.....from an assistance tower that uses them dozens of times a year....
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:53   #68
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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reposted with added info about drogues.....from an assistance tower that uses them dozens of times a year....

Time to let the rest go and put it to bed.

But I will explain one thing to you: the Freedom of Information Act has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you, or me, or some other sailor, ending up in the news.

That law is about a requirement that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT not keep secrets from us except under extraordinary situations (for example, they wouldn't be forced to reveal military strategies while a battle was going on). It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the incident I reported here.

And yes, if I knew more about sailing I wouldn't be asking about using drogues to steer because I would already know. Your use of the word "unpredictable" is enough for me. I will not try to get by steering with drogues if I'm already in deep doo-doo. Might use them as they were intended, though ...

If we all spent more time conversing and less time trying to corner someone this might be a more useful place. Now I have two opinions on the drogue. The conversation with my friend didn't involve the scenarios we've been talking about in this discussion. In spite of your attitude tonight, you actually provided useful information.

And that's why I'm here. I'm not here to try to be "liked" by someone who has really gotten quite hostile toward me. That's why it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. You wouldn't believe it if I produced a video at this point.
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Old 27-08-2013, 21:15   #69
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Time to let the rest go and put it to bed.

But I will explain one thing to you: the Freedom of Information Act has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you, or me, or some other sailor, ending up in the news.

That law is about a requirement that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT not keep secrets from us except under extraordinary situations (for example, they wouldn't be forced to reveal military strategies while a battle was going on). It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the incident I reported here.

And yes, if I knew more about sailing I wouldn't be asking about using drogues to steer because I would already know. Your use of the word "unpredictable" is enough for me. I will not try to get by steering with drogues if I'm already in deep doo-doo. Might use them as they were intended, though ...

If we all spent more time conversing and less time trying to corner someone this might be a more useful place. Now I have two opinions on the drogue. The conversation with my friend didn't involve the scenarios we've been talking about in this discussion. In spite of your attitude tonight, you actually provided useful information.

And that's why I'm here. I'm not here to try to be "liked" by someone who has really gotten quite hostile toward me. That's why it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. You wouldn't believe it if I produced a video at this point.
FOIA...look it up...I personally have responded to dozens and my staffs hundred or thousands...it just means send me info...no matter what it is if I doesn't meet an exemption..like SAR cases

never mind here it is....
"
The FOIA is a law that gives you the right to access information from the federal government. It is often described as the law that keeps citizens in the know about their government. Under the FOIA, agencies must disclose any information that is requested unless that information is protected from public disclosure. The FOIA also requires that agencies automatically disclose certain information, including frequently requested records. As Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court have all recognized, the FOIA is a vital part of our democracy."

FOIA.gov - Freedom of Information Act: Learn

SAR case files are common FOIA requests...

If your boat is documented...your name, boat name and address are on the internet...so much for privacy.

I don't care about you or the story as much as the specifics surrounding the USCG "ordering" someone off their boat I'll bet other's are interested too.
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Old 27-08-2013, 21:29   #70
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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FOIA...look it up...I personally have responded to dozens and my staffs hundred or thousands...it just means send me info...no matter what it is if I doesn't meet an exemption..like SAR cases

never mind here it is....
"
The FOIA is a law that gives you the right to access information from the federal government. It is often described as the law that keeps citizens in the know about their government. Under the FOIA, agencies must disclose any information that is requested unless that information is protected from public disclosure. The FOIA also requires that agencies automatically disclose certain information, including frequently requested records. As Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court have all recognized, the FOIA is a vital part of our democracy."

FOIA.gov - Freedom of Information Act: Learn

SAR case files are common FOIA requests...

If your boat is documented...your name, boat name and address are on the internet...so much for privacy.

I don't care about you or the story as much as the specifics surrounding the USCG "ordering" someone off their boat I'll bet other's are interested too.

What they said was that they rescue everyone or they rescue no one. That might not have been the wording in the original post, but I did say it when asked. In order for him to protect his crew he had to leave the boat also.

Since it's already been clarified (and quite some time ago) your hanging on to that word looks pretty silly to me. In a *friendly* conversation trying to clarify points, it never would have gone this way.

Your bias is so obvious that if I knew it, I wouldn't even tell you the time of day they were rescued. You don't want to know why I think you should apply FOIA to this. I've formed an opinion, but it isn't pretty.
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Old 27-08-2013, 21:31   #71
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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In many old stories it seems that sailors ending up with boats on reefs could later recover from there. Seems like these days you'd have to pay for the environmental impact studies, repairs to the reef or the sand and rock, and for the removal of the boat, whether or not it ess still usable. Cheaper to replace the boat imo.
You've got that right.

I went to a seminar on reef safety a few months ago. I thought that I was going to be hearing a scientist speak about how to operate around reefs without damaging them. What I got was a bureaucrat from some government agency that was set up by an executive order from Billy Jeff & then reauthorized by E.O.s from every president since.

In all those government-funded years, all they got done was to map out where the reefs were, claim those areas as their jurisdiction, & get laws passed so that they could fine the bajesus out of any poor soul that ran aground on one of them.

The speaker seemed very proud that they had gotten those laws pushed through. He was unable to comment on any useful questions, like "is it actually OK to use a grappling anchor near a reef, or is that just an old wives tale?" His most common answer to real questions was "That's a great question. We haven't determined that yet." Except that he knew all about how much they could fine you for hitting a reef.

Those are my tax dollars at work for the good of society.
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Old 27-08-2013, 21:41   #72
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

"
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You've got that right.

...

The speaker seemed very proud that they had gotten those laws pushed through. He was unable to comment on any useful questions, like "is it actually OK to use a grappling anchor near a reef, or is that just an old wives tale?" His most common answer to real questions was "That's a great question. We haven't determined that yet." Except that he knew all about how much they could fine you for hitting a reef.

Those are my tax dollars at work for the good of society.
I'm glad the laws were passed too, because we have a lot more yahoos on boats than we did when Cook was sailing. In his defense, we didn't have boats and ships loaded with refined petroleum products and electronics that apparently use every toxic substance known to man in them ...

But it would be nice to get practical information, not "Here's how the gov't will nail your hide to the wall ..."

It would be really good to know how to minimize damage if one did hit a reef.
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Old 27-08-2013, 22:38   #73
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

What does the USCG do with a boat far at sea after they've removed the drugs and crew and don't want to tow it for two hundred miles?
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Old 27-08-2013, 22:44   #74
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

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I know someone who lost his rudder in heavy seas in the Gulf of Mexico. The Coast Guard took everyone off, would not let him stay behind. They sent him down to open the through holes, and instead he set a transponder to an unused frequency.
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I can probably verify the story...do you have a name?, boat name? approximate date?...approximate location?...anything? I'll be glad to see if I can find the facts surrounding the story.
I think the boat under discussion is probably Petersburg's Jopie Helsen's modified 47 foot Hunter named Jade CruChu. Helsen and his crew were returning after completing the Isla Mujeres race and left on Friday 30th April 2010.

To summarise: On Saturday the 1st of May the boat lost its rudder in 10 foot seas and 30 knots winds. The EPIRB was activated on the 2nd of May. On Monday 3rd of May a boat patrolling the central Gulf of Mexico tried towing it with the crew on board, but the trip became too uncomfortable and on Wednesday 5th of May the exhausted crew were transferred to the patrol boat. They had spend 5 days on board after the loss of the rudder. The tow could not proceed and a salvage operator towed the boat back to St. Petersburg in the next day or two.

These two reports were published in the Tampa Bay Times:

Sailing: Returning sailboat in Isla Mujeres race becomes disabled | Tampa Bay Times

Skipper's cool head, preparation save sailing crew from dire straits | Tampa Bay Times

There can't be much secrecy involved if the owner/skipper of the yacht was prepared to give interviews about the event.

The article did not mention any instructions given to scuttle the boat, nor did it mention transponder frequencies being changed, but perhaps psneeld could use his contacts to find out a few more details for us. The story is of interest .
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Old 27-08-2013, 23:15   #75
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Re: Abandoning Ship, Maybe Scuttle it Too?

'a monster wave snapped the rudder off their sailboat, '

Hmmmm... not a 'rouge' wave but a monster wave .... golleee....

Now moving right along.... about 12 years ago a Hunter came ashore near where I was living at the time.... the rudder had 'snapped off' when she came ashore.. I couldn't believe my eyes... the rudder stock was a GRP 'shell' filled with foam..... I kid you not.
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