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Old 18-04-2013, 06:22   #106
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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You mean this guy????


Or this guy???

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Old 18-04-2013, 06:43   #107
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These guys aren't sailors. I don't see how they can show up at the yot club after abandoning a perfectly good ship. Look at the waste and expense caused by this lack of fortitude. I'll bet some dopes are waiting in line to buy 'em drinks at the club bar.

Knockdowns happen.

Cherish are things on ice cream sundaes.

Jerks.
That's a very harsh statement. The ocean has stacks of yachts floating around that survived abandonment. Read the 1979 fastnet accounts , Sydney Hobart etc.

Like boatman has said in other threads we weren't there.

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Old 18-04-2013, 06:53   #108
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

A number of these boats have been brought into Bermuda by local crews who went and got them.
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Old 18-04-2013, 06:53   #109
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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That's a very harsh statement. The ocean has stacks of yachts floating around that survived abandonment. Read the 1979 fastnet accounts , Sydney Hobart etc.
Life's were lost in the 1979 Fastnet because they abandoned ship when the boat was coping quite well. And since abandoning ship is not risk free, I don't think you should use the Fastnet as an example to back up your argument.
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:18   #110
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

I hear you Dave. All those floating abandoned boats are the point.

And knockdowns do happen. Nothing trivial about a rough weather one. If all sailors had to watch the videos we all see routinely, less than half would go to sea I suspect, which would be a better deal for all of us particularly the SAR folks.

Hubris and jerks go together. "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris". (McGeorge Bundy)/borrowed from Mr Google out of context.

You buy 'em a brew, Sir. In fact, if you're into that kind of thing we've a whole town full of sailing heroes and legends. We could have knockdown night, or how to roll 360 and keep yer rig, yer bimini, and kicker.

Ye want warm beer? No prob, Captain.

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Old 18-04-2013, 07:20   #111
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Looking at the crew, I wonder if age becomes a factor in some cases. I would hesitate to go to sea in a boat crewed strictly by men in their sixties and up. Obviously generalizations are never a good idea, and I've known plenty of sixty five year old men who could work like a horse with little sleep. But I've also known plenty who get tired easily, and nothing has a more negative impact on morale than exhaustion. It may also have added to the skippers level of concern. A bunch of old timers getting thrown around inside a boat in rough weather could be a lot riskier than the same situation with a younger crew. Much more potential for broken limbs. None of these guys look to be in great shape either. Not a single burly weather beaten guy among them.

"Burly" is over-rated. One of the best seamen I know is 73, 5'4" and 127 lb. soaking wet. Unbelievable stamina, but he has been actively boating, living on the hook so at least in his dinghy maybe 3 times a day or more, for a couple of decades. Most of life with some sojurns to living on land. He works on other people's boats for a living.

I'm 67, been living on this boat for a little more than 2 years -- at a dock when not sailing -- and I'm stronger than I was 20 years ago.

I think it depends on lifestyle. If they're experienced sailors who to out once a month for an afternoon, that's a big difference between a crew of 65 year old men who still race hard all season.
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:25   #112
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Age can be a positive not a negative factor, as long as health and fitness is reasonable.
I feel experience is the overriding factor in these conditions and this can be one huge advantage with advancing years. In a situation like this I would rather be with 4 x 60 year olds with a bit of sailing/boat maintenance under their belts than 4 x 30 year olds!

Especially if you have several people with lots of both age and experience. The combined common sense and skill might be really considerable.

Muscle does you no good if you pull on the wrong line at the wrong time.
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:31   #113
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Isn't there an app available that converts seawater to freshwater?

I know I don't have a paper chart that does it.
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:34   #114
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Life's were lost in the 1979 Fastnet because they abandoned ship when the boat was coping quite well. And since abandoning ship is not risk free, I don't think you should use the Fastnet as an example to back up your argument.
I met several survivors from that event. Yet me tell you , that some would have died remaining inside the boat.. This is the trouble with armchair sailors. No real experience.

The fact is having talked to several rescued people over the years and sailed through a few nasties myself , is that crew dynamic is the big forgotten factor. You cannot flay leisure crew through a storm that is frightening the life out of them , or where morale has plumetted. I know one skipper that was forced to hide his Epirb to stop the crew pressing the button.

We rarely here the human side, primarily because of defamation laws. So we tend to get recounted tales about the conditions and the machine , ie , gear failure etc.


Who knows what went on inside that cabin , we weren't there. They are all alive , the boat is irrelevant as are its costs. Would you say the same , if the skipper has pushed on and lost the boat or a life

Who knows, we weren't there.

Its not defending these people's, there could be all sorts of side stories

But you can take it that I don't have any time for the blondie Haslar viewpoint.

Dave
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:45   #115
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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I met several survivors from that event. Yet me tell you , that some would have died remaining inside the boat.. This is the trouble with armchair sailors. No real experience.
You like to throw that "armchair sailor" around a lot - in fact, anytime someone disagrees with you.

The fact of the matter is that the final report showed that some sailors would most likely have survived if they had stayed on board. So, unless you can talk to the dead, your friendship with people who were on some of the boats is nothing more than hearsay from where I stand. And my point that there's also risk involved in abandoning ship still stands.

Edit: I agree that the boat is not the most important thing. I never said otherwise.
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:52   #116
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Originally Posted by Caracal View Post

You like to throw that "armchair sailor" around a lot - in fact, anytime someone disagrees with you.

The fact of the matter is that the final report showed that some sailors would most likely have survived if they had stayed on board. So, unless you can talk to the dead, your friendship with people who were on some of the boats is nothing more than hearsay from where I stand. And my point that there's also risk involved in abandoning ship still stands.
You might read the report again , you might read about dismantled vessels etc.

The fact is the reason most people take to a liferaft , is they have formed a conclusion that the interior of the boat simply isn't safe.

As one chap, said to me , stung by that criticism, " it was like a washing machine inside , with the furniture breaking off the hull and throwing itself at us , and they suggest we stay inside that !!!

What you must listen to is people recounting , ie the human element . The fasnet tragedy showed its not about abandoning boats , ( many crews were rescued complete from liferafts.) but about poor decision inn making in being in that place at that time.

I use the term armchair sailor to mean anyone not there at the time , that includes me.

The next life you're in a lifeboat , take a look at the huge huge care , engineering and design and vast costs that going making sure the vessel can not just survive a knockdown , but more importantly the crew and vessel can continue to function afterwards. Its an eye opener ( then compare the crap that passes for engineering in most boats )

Ps ever seen an engine break its mountings and come out into the cabin , its a scary sight to think that might suddenly be in your chest !


Dave
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Old 18-04-2013, 07:58   #117
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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You might read the report again , you might read about dismantled vessels etc.

The fact is the reason most people take to a liferaft , is they have formed a conclusion that the interior of the boat simply isn't safe.

As one chap, said to me , stung by that criticism, " it was like a washing machine inside , with the furniture breaking off the hull and throwing itself at us , and they suggest we stay inside that !!!

What you must listen to is people recounting , ie the human element . The fasnet tragedy showed its not about abandoning boats , ( many crews were rescued complete from liferafts.) but about poor decision inn making in being in that place at that time.

I use the term armchair sailor to mean anyone not there at the time , that includes me.
Dave

One of the most important conclusions from that report, apart from having washboards that doesn't fall out if knocked down, was to wait until you actually had to step up into the life raft to phrase it a bit populist, and this was based on the finding of the report. It also goes to show that abandoning ship is not risk-free as I have said since my first post. It has its own sets of risks.

I don't know why you seem to take this so personal. It is not only the findings of the official report, it is basic common sense that abandoning a boat is a risk too, which, and let me repeat this once again, was my point from the get go. I am in no advocating staying with your boat at all costs. Human life is more important.
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Old 18-04-2013, 08:12   #118
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One of the most important conclusions from that report, apart from having washboards that doesn't fall out if knocked down, was to wait until you actually had to step up into the life raft to phrase it a bit populist, and this was based on the finding of the report. It also goes to show that abandoning ship is not risk-free as I have said since my first post. It has its own sets of risks.

I don't know why you seem to take this so personal. It is not only the findings of the official report, it is basic common sense that abandoning a boat is a risk too, which, and let me repeat this once again, was my point from the get go. I am in no advocating staying with your boat at all costs. Human life is more important.
That's all I was saying , that the populist cliche is just that , a cliche . Every situation has to be evaluated based on the exact circumstances applying at that moment.

Here's the actual paragraph

"able 4.19 shows that with one exception, the abandoned yachts had been knocked down to past horizontal, and all of them had suffered severe damage to their hull, steering or rig. 17 were "calculated" abandonments, in that the crew remained on board the yacht until help in the form of a helicopter, ship or another yacht arrived. In several of these cases the life raft was used to effect transfer to the rescue vehicle but the raft was launched only as a means of transfer. Only six yachts were abandoned before help was at hand. Of these six yachts two have not been recovered and may be considered to have been in sinking condition at the time they were abandoned. Two had suffered knockdowns and major damage to superstructure so that although they were recovered, at the time of
abandonment there was excellent reason to believe that they were unlikely to survive a further knockdown. Thus only two yachts were abandoned simply on the grounds that the life raft was likely to provide more security than the Virtually undamaged hull of the yacht.
4.41 The 17 skippers who took the conscious decision to abandon to a helicopter, ship or another yacht believed that at the time there was an unacceptably high risk to the crew if they remained on board the yacht. It would be Improper to question these decisions without lengthy and detailed Investigations of the circumstances which led to them. Such investigations would, it is believed, be pointless; there is certainly no evidence that those who originated distress calls did so for any reason other than that they believed their yachts were in grave and imminent danger, nor that conditions of grave and Imminent danger did not In fact exist."

There is simply no evidence one way or the other to justify the cliche ! , it a " all depends"

15 yachtsmen died , only a few as a result of improper abandonment ( one was a heart attack )

I merely use all this to indicate , that armchair quarterbacking is just that . Comments liked " jerk" have no place in this lexicon ,there is no , absolutely no value in needless death . If you feel unsafe , its your feeling .

Dave
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Old 18-04-2013, 08:15   #119
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

As one chap, said to me , stung by that criticism, " it was like a washing machine inside , with the furniture breaking off the hull and throwing itself at us , and they suggest we stay inside that !!!
This is something I bang on about on every "ship abandoned" thread.

There seems to be a general opinion that if a boat was abandoned by crew and found floating later that leaving the boat was the wrong idea. There is also this oft repeated aphorism "only step up into a life raft" that I don't think is a good model for real decision making regarding a potential abandonment.

Inorganics v Organics. The Organics always lose. If you are being tossed around a vessel, if her innards are literally pounding you to death, if you crew are hurt then regardless of the fitness of the vessel it is likely time to call for help.

Yes, it is foolish to think that heavy weather conditions would be beter in a life raft than in your boat but that is not the only or even likely option. What usually happens, as in this case is you "step up" onto a diverted large vessel.

Edit: Dave you beat me to it on the idea that abandonment does not mostly mean the long term use of the life raft except as a means to retrieval

Just because an object made out of plastic, wood and metal survives months after being abandoned does not mean that the soft meat bodies that were inside would have fared as well.

We
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There.
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Old 18-04-2013, 08:20   #120
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

In other words, lives were lost as a consequence of abandoning ship. The reason it has become a cliche to wait to abandon ship until you can step up into the raft, is because it should be the last resort and that it is usually the right thing to do. The raft is a raft, not a boat. You can't trail ropes, you cant steer it, and on and on. It's a raft. And entering that raft, or being rescued carries risk too.

I'm trying to be really polite, despite my propensity to be condescending, especially when it's a response to condescension, but you seem to want to pick a fight, when the most salient point of my posts has been to point out that abandoning ships carry its own set of risks. Call that "armchair sailor" all you want, it doesn't change the facts.

I could make a tongue-in-cheek comment about your signature, but at this point I will refrain
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