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Old 08-04-2013, 07:53   #31
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Looking at the crew, I wonder if age becomes a factor in some cases. I would hesitate to go to sea in a boat crewed strictly by men in their sixties and up. Obviously generalizations are never a good idea, and I've known plenty of sixty five year old men who could work like a horse with little sleep. But I've also known plenty who get tired easily, and nothing has a more negative impact on morale than exhaustion. It may also have added to the skippers level of concern. A bunch of old timers getting thrown around inside a boat in rough weather could be a lot riskier than the same situation with a younger crew. Much more potential for broken limbs. None of these guys look to be in great shape either. Not a single burly weather beaten guy among them.

We wouldnt want to be agist now would we....
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:54   #32
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
But I heard that you can just use an ipad to sail around and that knowledge and actual use of paper and piloting are old hat.


lol
Flown Lately?

Aircrew are routinely using Ipads for airport data and NOTAMs.

Your airforce is buying lots of them

Quote:
The Air Force has moved forward with plans to provide its aircrews with tablets as it awarded a $9.36 million contract for 18,000 iPads Thursday
Not suggesting its prudent to go to sea with an Ipad, but it aint all bad either. I have charts and GPS/Plotter and Laptop. And spare gps in ditch bag. Probably got enough now.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:53   #33
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
We wouldnt want to be agist now would we....


No, we wouldn't. Hence all the qualifiers. But we do live in the real world, and age CAN be a factor. Just saying that in this particular case, none of these guys physically speaking inspire great confidence in me at a glance. No need to take that and run with it.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:21   #34
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The man had sailed all over Northern Europe boatman, hes a very experienced boat owner for many years.
GBN... there's tons of 'experience over many years' sailors out there in Northern Europe... averaging 4-6weeks a years... coastal..
This was apparent by the route he chose down to Hatteras before cutting across for Bermuda.. more or less doubling the distance and exposure.
Fair enough there was ice at the start but 150 miles S and he could have gone direct saving time and avoided a lot of the **** that builds up in that area.. he chose to turn for Bermuda around the confluence of the Gulf & Labrador currents and that N wall can be a real bitch.
The time saved on a more direct route could have made all the difference to the story... but then you and I do see sailing from different perspectives...
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:03   #35
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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No, we wouldn't. Hence all the qualifiers. But we do live in the real world, and age CAN be a factor. Just saying that in this particular case, none of these guys physically speaking inspire great confidence in me at a glance. No need to take that and run with it.
Age can be a positive not a negative factor, as long as health and fitness is reasonable.
I feel experience is the overriding factor in these conditions and this can be one huge advantage with advancing years. In a situation like this I would rather be with 4 x 60 year olds with a bit of sailing/boat maintenance under their belts than 4 x 30 year olds!
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:13   #36
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Flown Lately?

Aircrew are routinely using Ipads for airport data and NOTAMs.

Your airforce is buying lots of them

Not suggesting its prudent to go to sea with an Ipad, but it aint all bad either. I have charts and GPS/Plotter and Laptop. And spare gps in ditch bag. Probably got enough now.
Planes don't take 4 weeks to cross an ocean getting pounded by seawater, squalls, and swells the entire time. Completely different requirements. And beyond that, commercial aircraft are required to be manned by professionally trained and licensed crews who are routinely put through simulators in addition to professional evaluations.

So yeah, the guy in the F-18/A can use his electronics, and the retired lawyer on the Hunter should know how to do a dr plot and keep it current.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:37   #37
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
No, we wouldn't. Hence all the qualifiers. But we do live in the real world, and age CAN be a factor. Just saying that in this particular case, none of these guys physically speaking inspire great confidence in me at a glance. No need to take that and run with it.
Minaret, I think you are spot on here. Those of us who are in their sixties and above know damn well there are things we can't do today that we used to do 30 years ago. If the boat falls off a big wave, we are more likely to get thrown, and our injuries take longer to heal. Maybe that's the reason the army doesn't want us anymore. On the other hand, we are more experienced.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:53   #38
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Minaret, I think you are spot on here. Those of us who are in their sixties know we are more likely to get thrown, and our injuries take longer to heal. Maybe that's the reason the army doesn't want us anymore. On the other hand, we are more experienced.
the same reason young women no longer look at us
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:03   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61

GBN... there's tons of 'experience over many years' sailors out there in Northern Europe... averaging 4-6weeks a years... coastal..
This was apparent by the route he chose down to Hatteras before cutting across for Bermuda.. more or less doubling the distance and exposure.
Fair enough there was ice at the start but 150 miles S and he could have gone direct saving time and avoided a lot of the **** that builds up in that area.. he chose to turn for Bermuda around the confluence of the Gulf & Labrador currents and that N wall can be a real bitch.
The time saved on a more direct route could have made all the difference to the story... but then you and I do see sailing from different perspectives...
Yes I agree it looked like someone who didnt plan properly.

You and I probably agree more about sailing the we disagree. And delivery skippers are tough!

Davec
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:06   #40
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Minaret, I think you are spot on here. Those of us who are in their sixties and above know damn well there are things we can't do today that we used to do 30 years ago. If the boat falls off a big wave, we are more likely to get thrown, and our injuries take longer to heal. Maybe that's the reason the army doesn't want us anymore. On the other hand, we are more experienced.

Exactly, thank you. Perhaps the skipper was considering this factor when he decided to push the panic button. Being more concerned about his crews welfare than the boats was the right thing, and there are many factors to consider.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:08   #41
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

To clarify a bit...

The skipper is experienced, but not trans-oceanic. That said coastal sailing in the Med is alot harder than some think. You can get walloped there. Anyone with the number of years he has, has experienced some heavy weather thrown at them.

As for the crew they would be mostly bay racers and sailors - out looking for some blue miles, but not totally green.

Something else to understand is an aspect of Irish culture and mentality.

They are not given to bullshit and grandiosity, one of the reasons so many hollywood stars come to Ireland. They are left in peace.

Important side note: Outsiders think that the reason Hollywooders are left alone is part of the Irish "grounded-ness" - this is actually a crock of *****. The Irish are as anxious and image conscious as the rest of the world. What it really comes down to is the Irish national sport - "begrudgery". What is really happening when someone like George Clooney comes into a pub in Dublin and everyone ignores him isnt natural Irish humility - it is actually everyone in the pub looking at him and thinking, "Whose your man think he is and who is he when he is at home - that bollocks is no better than me"...and hence they ignore him.

...Anyway this aspect of Irish self Identity and culture has carried them in good stead for almost all things in life for centuries but in this case may be a principle part of how this event occurred.

Basically they would be, as a society, firmly in the "Go Now" camp. There are so many colloquialisms that illustrate this concept; "Ah Sure, dont worry it will be grand", "Sure, thats good enough", "Wha?! Just leave it will ya, lets get on with it..", etc...

In this case the skipper, even in this community, was known as a bit of a cowboy - so in any briefing or boat prep etc. he would have minimized any advice that would potentially be perceived as grandiose or exaggerated, like many in this forum do when the dreaded term "bluewater" is mentioned. The Irish would be more like the Bumfuzzles would be my best analogy.

So they buy the boat, dont check the systems, figure they are "grand" and head south to warmer waters in the middle of a North Atlantic Winter...

...and the dice were rolled...

Surprise!!!!! In this case the advice that 95% of the time was unnecessary, became relevant and hence the loss of a boat.

In fairness I feel his decision to abandon was the correct one. The Irish, when it comes down to the reality at the coal face, are the most practical people I have ever had the pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many skippers here could have weathered the boat in, but in the same vein that Irish dont tolerate bullshit in others, they also dont tolerate it in themselves.

The skipper got himself into a disastrous position but had a crystal clear vision of his own capabilities and his crew's capabilities at that moment and made a decision with an Irish clarity the rest of us wish we could have that the safest option was to pull the ripcord.

I have serious issues with everything that lead to this point but total respect for this decision. Many in this forum seem to place an inordinate value on inorganics, ego or reputation.

This skipper clearly and without question stopped gambling and placed the organics at his command at the top of this list.

All are back in Ireland and I am eager for the club dinner where we give them all a good roasting.

Just an Irish blow-in input to the discussion
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:23   #42
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

Lots of contributing factors, but the main one is February in the North Atlantic.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:55   #43
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
To clarify a bit...

The skipper is experienced, but not trans-oceanic. That said coastal sailing in the Med is alot harder than some think. You can get walloped there. Anyone with the number of years he has, has experienced some heavy weather thrown at them.

As for the crew they would be mostly bay racers and sailors - out looking for some blue miles, but not totally green.

Something else to understand is an aspect of Irish culture and mentality.

They are not given to bullshit and grandiosity, one of the reasons so many hollywood stars come to Ireland. They are left in peace.

Important side note: Outsiders think that the reason Hollywooders are left alone is part of the Irish "grounded-ness" - this is actually a crock of *****. The Irish are as anxious and image conscious as the rest of the world. What it really comes down to is the Irish national sport - "begrudgery". What is really happening when someone like George Clooney comes into a pub in Dublin and everyone ignores him isnt natural Irish humility - it is actually everyone in the pub looking at him and thinking, "Whose your man think he is and who is he when he is at home - that bollocks is no better than me"...and hence they ignore him.

...Anyway this aspect of Irish self Identity and culture has carried them in good stead for almost all things in life for centuries but in this case may be a principle part of how this event occurred.

Basically they would be, as a society, firmly in the "Go Now" camp. There are so many colloquialisms that illustrate this concept; "Ah Sure, dont worry it will be grand", "Sure, thats good enough", "Wha?! Just leave it will ya, lets get on with it..", etc...

In this case the skipper, even in this community, was known as a bit of a cowboy - so in any briefing or boat prep etc. he would have minimized any advice that would potentially be perceived as grandiose or exaggerated, like many in this forum do when the dreaded term "bluewater" is mentioned. The Irish would be more like the Bumfuzzles would be my best analogy.

So they buy the boat, dont check the systems, figure they are "grand" and head south to warmer waters in the middle of a North Atlantic Winter...

...and the dice were rolled...

Surprise!!!!! In this case the advice that 95% of the time was unnecessary, became relevant and hence the loss of a boat.

In fairness I feel his decision to abandon was the correct one. The Irish, when it comes down to the reality at the coal face, are the most practical people I have ever had the pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many skippers here could have weathered the boat in, but in the same vein that Irish dont tolerate bullshit in others, they also dont tolerate it in themselves.

The skipper got himself into a disastrous position but had a crystal clear vision of his own capabilities and his crew's capabilities at that moment and made a decision with an Irish clarity the rest of us wish we could have that the safest option was to pull the ripcord.

I have serious issues with everything that lead to this point but total respect for this decision. Many in this forum seem to place an inordinate value on inorganics, ego or reputation.

This skipper clearly and without question stopped gambling and placed the organics at his command at the top of this list.

All are back in Ireland and I am eager for the club dinner where we give them all a good roasting.

Just an Irish blow-in input to the discussion
No way am I questioning his decision.. he was on the spot.. pun...?
What I'm trying to do is analyse what went wrong and possible solutions for the benefit of folk who may find themselves in that situation in the future... its the lead up and route chosen, options for fixing things etc...
I did not learn how to rig a temp fuel tank till 12yrs ago...
I did not realise it could be done not being a mechanic.. a guy I met in Horta showed me how to do it as I too had **** fuel and had to sail onto the Customs dock in Horta at 2.30am.. solo, after a crappy crossing..
The same with Gaz... first time I came across the US style safety systems and muti-cutoff/alarms... and I've worked in the gas industry.. all be it a long time ago helping convert the whole of the UK to Natural Gas.. a cheap little camping stove and 6 gas canisters costs $40... and stows easy till needed in an emergency.
Little seemingly unimportant things but... they can save you and your boat.. or at least make a bad time a tad easier..
But a decision to abandon.. that take's guts.. do I have em...?
the last time on a potentially sinking boat... no...
I got the boat in with crew on board and the RS on standby... stubborn..? scared..? or just plain cocky..?
You'd have to ask the valiant crew who held their sh*t together even with the manual bilge pumps in their hands.. broken..
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:03   #44
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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You'd have to ask the valiant crew who held their sh*t together even with the manual bilge pumps in their hands.. broken.
Reminds me of the story about Dick Nye onboard Carina in the 1957 Fastnet after they'd been pumping the boat around a good chunk of the course. From here.

Quote:
Carina had fallen off a wave in the Needles Channel and cracked several frames to cause a severe leak. Once across the finishing line off the breakwater at Plymouth, Nye called out to his crew, "OK, boys, we're over now; let the damn boat sink!"
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:10   #45
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

Phil,

Not directed at you or anyone else in particular - just a general update and maybe a bit of a frustration at how this forum deals with failure...

As much as I respect the ability to make any decision this hard, i will be bumping into this guy at the club at some point and have to ask my self, "What Will I say?"

Will I be the hardass and make him kiss the bosuns maiden or will I ask the questions we all have?

As my club, like most, is not a "bluewater" club if I gave out heaps people would look at me funny.

Maybe a good quiet dinner with just mates and himself and crew would give a good insight to what really happened.

If this happens I'll post the outcome.
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