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Old 19-07-2013, 07:53   #211
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
Indeed - which is why including having a cup of tea in the plan as mentioned by David above is a good idea (back when I was armying, my instructors referred to it as taking a "Hamlet moment"). HOWEVER, decision making under stress is usually impaired, often quite severely. This is where having a plan helps - knowing what you're going to be able to do reduces the level of stress, and in most situations a slightly inappropriate plan implemented well is better than the perfect plan implemented late or badly.

This is also where experience kicks in (and here I'm thinking of experience of things going wrong, not just miles sailed) - if you've seen a particular problem before, you have that template in your head plus the knowledge that it worked, cutting down on stress levels.

This is one urgent reason IMO (speaking as one in the shoes I'm describing why people should not prematurely rush out to do something like sail across the Atlantic or Pacific without enough experience under their belts.

People who use rescue organizations have often taken a lot of armchair heat here, but if I was stretching myself and ended up in more than I could handle, IMO I should call for help. I'm not willing to die so that someone else can say "Well, she was a real sailor. She went down with the ship."

If my boat is afterwards found safe and salvageable some time afterwards, mazel tov! But I can only make decisions based on my experience, my knowledge, my understanding of my boat, my strength, my stamina, my endurance, etc.. If any one of those things is taxed beyond its limits, I'm in real trouble.

It's not an issue for me. I don't have a death wish and I won't be sailing beyond the reach of rescue organizations in *my* boat. My boat and I don't fit the description in the paragraph above.

None of us can know what went wrong when a boat sinks unless we personally hear the situation the specific skipper or captain found him or herself in. And, frankly, given the way this place pecks at such incidents like crows on a roadkill, coming here to discuss what happened wouldn't be my first choice. No matter what i knew, someone would make assumptions based on something I didn't say, if nothing else, and then harp on it.
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Old 19-07-2013, 10:21   #212
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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This drumming in of constantly thinking "what if" has been lifesaving for me gliding when I had a rope break at 150 feet while taking another pilot for a routine check flight. Take over had to be instant and I had no time to be mulling over the best course of action, not even the luxury of an extra second. I am sure this type of awareness of the benefits of planning for emergencies has made me much safer on the water.
My worst was having the instrument panel fall off and land in my lap halfway up a winch launch, and then finding out that the rudder pedals were jammed to one side when I got off the wire. That was a very busy few minutes, but I got through it safely - largely because I hat thought through my options long in advance and know them instinctively.
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Old 19-07-2013, 11:01   #213
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

It;s the same with motorcycles. I used to have a 3x5 card taped into my helmet that said, 'this could be your last ride.' As I put my hemet on I would see this, anything on my mind was put aside. Also I had a flight instructor who when on his own had a throttle vernier come off the dash and into his hand. Glad I wasn't with him.
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Old 19-07-2013, 11:18   #214
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think the more people involved, the more you need a specific plan even for minor problems. That's just how groups of people are.

But if there's two of you, and you've sailed together for decades? You'd probably know what the other person was going to do 99% of the time. And when you needed to talk something through together, I think you'd know it.

It's all about who's on the boat, I think.
Yup...
I'm a bit mean with new crew... something goes wrong its
"Oh Buga... we're screwed.... !!"...
From then on every things 'Good News'....
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Old 19-07-2013, 14:15   #215
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

"Well men, I've got some good news and some bad news, the good news is we all get a change of underwear; the bad news is Capt. is changing with the Mate, Mate is changing with the Bosun."
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Old 19-07-2013, 16:15   #216
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
This is one urgent reason IMO (speaking as one in the shoes I'm describing why people should not prematurely rush out to do something like sail across the Atlantic or Pacific without enough experience under their belts.

People who use rescue organizations have often taken a lot of armchair heat here, but if I was stretching myself and ended up in more than I could handle, IMO I should call for help. I'm not willing to die so that someone else can say "Well, she was a real sailor. She went down with the ship."

If my boat is afterwards found safe and salvageable some time afterwards, mazel tov! But I can only make decisions based on my experience, my knowledge, my understanding of my boat, my strength, my stamina, my endurance, etc.. If any one of those things is taxed beyond its limits, I'm in real trouble.

It's not an issue for me. I don't have a death wish and I won't be sailing beyond the reach of rescue organizations in *my* boat. My boat and I don't fit the description in the paragraph above.

None of us can know what went wrong when a boat sinks unless we personally hear the situation the specific skipper or captain found him or herself in. And, frankly, given the way this place pecks at such incidents like crows on a roadkill, coming here to discuss what happened wouldn't be my first choice. No matter what i knew, someone would make assumptions based on something I didn't say, if nothing else, and then harp on it.
+1 a great post and a realistic viewpoint.

dave
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Old 19-07-2013, 16:54   #217
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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+1 a great post and a realistic viewpoint.

dave
+A1...What he said she said....... almost..
There have been a couple or three skippers here who've shared their mishaps bravely and not been trashed..
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Old 19-07-2013, 17:05   #218
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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+A1...What he said she said....... almost..
There have been a couple or three skippers here who've shared their mishaps bravely and not been trashed..

Can't take it out of context. I was talking about people who couldn't be here to 'splain themselves.
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Old 19-07-2013, 17:08   #219
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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+A1...What he said she said....... almost..
There have been a couple or three skippers here who've shared their mishaps bravely and not been trashed..
Takes a brave person to share faults and failures on the internet! - but I reckon overall that those who do that on CF and who already know they made a few mistakes and are happy to hold hand up (rather than simply to defend self against everything) get a fair crack of the whip.........obviously not by everyone!, but that's the internet for ya!..........and real life - and those folks as important as "you" want them to be.
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Old 19-07-2013, 17:22   #220
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Takes a brave person to share faults and failures on the internet! - but I reckon overall that those who do that on CF and who already know they made a few mistakes and are happy to hold hand up (rather than simply to defend self against everything) get a fair crack of the whip.........obviously not by everyone!, but that's the internet for ya!..........and real life - and those folks as important as "you" want them to be.

Sure. Our thread on bonehaded things we've done is entertaining, and we all know we've done' em.

But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the thrashing people we don't even know take for making a life-and-death decision, like calling for SAR or abandoning ship. My point is that we can only make such calls based on our experience, our knowledge of our boats, etc.. and that somehow it turns out the boat has survived, but that we here seem quick to criticize people for doing this.

I'm not going to sail around the world or even "just" to the Azores. I don't have the skills for it and the wrong boat for it. But if I were on my way to Key West and thought that I and my crew were in real peril, I would call SAR, and I think that's a better call than being dead and having others say "Well, good for her -- she went down with the ship." I wasn't talking about mistakes we've all made, but life and death decisions. (Read my blog -- I own up to plenty of mistakes there.)
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Old 19-07-2013, 17:52   #221
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

Everyone here who contributes regularly gets thrashed now and then.. no ones immune.. most take it and get on with life... some get the hump and stomp out... and true sometimes the skipper comes up in a bad light.. sometimes not.
We all sail differently... so you'll get different opinions/choices of actions.. if people don't respond to these threads sincerely what's the point... the Forum turns into just another 'Headlines Site,..
If nothing else it gives us a chance to assess each others knowledge, experience and maybe learn something new.. no ones perfect
The rest... that's just collateral damage...
Got it everywhere else...
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Old 19-07-2013, 18:04   #222
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Everyone here who contributes regularly gets thrashed now and then.. no ones immune.. most take it and get on with life... some get the hump and stomp out... and true sometimes the skipper comes up in a bad light.. sometimes not.
We all sail differently... so you'll get different opinions/choices of actions.. if people don't respond to these threads sincerely what's the point... the Forum turns into just another 'Headlines Site,..
If nothing else it gives us a chance to assess each others knowledge, experience and maybe learn something new.. no ones perfect
The rest... that's just collateral damage...
Got it everywhere else...

Not what I was talking about, but whatever ...
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Old 19-07-2013, 18:06   #223
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I dont really think you'll ever get a skipper on CF to give you a true version of what happened in a loss situation. I don't ever remember ( que huge links posting ) it happening on CF. the insurance implications and legal issues would prevent anyone going public. Usually they are reported third hand and we are have a bash at them.

Funny though , if you sail off in a unsuitable boat and disappear , you get sympathy , get rescued and you get scorn. I never understood that. Going down with the ship is so 1911s

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Old 19-07-2013, 19:04   #224
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

Having reviewed probably thousands of accident reports both aviation and marine and having given statements myself from being in accidents personally...the chances an individual gives more than 50-75 percent facts in the correct chronologic order is pretty rare.

Many can remember a lot of facts...just not the timeline too accurately...others remember little but are very accurate in terms of specific details and time...

In reality...accident statements and memories are all over the map when it comes to an accurate picture of what happened. It takes a thorough investigation to get to the real bottom of anything.

But...some people and many investigators with enough experience can come pretty close in "guessing" the facts even without the details. They may be able to assemble a pretty convincing discussion on what "probably happened"..... but the good ones would never do it in public....just not ethical.

Commenting on specific, documented or admitted actions though are fair game.
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Old 19-07-2013, 20:25   #225
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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This is one urgent reason IMO (speaking as one in the shoes I'm describing why people should not prematurely rush out to do something like sail across the Atlantic or Pacific without enough experience under their belts.
Are you making this recommendation based on your personal experience or are you making it based on what you have read on CF and in books?

For someone that has never been offshore and in no more weather than a Florida thunderstorm, prescribing what CF sailors should or shouldn't do in areas significantly beyond your experience base seems to be supremely arrogant.

Just out or curiosity, what would be "enough experience" to cross oceans in your more than humble opinion?
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