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Old 18-04-2013, 12:43   #136
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
We'll need a front man to strike the deals with the insurance companies. I took a knock down once in the straight of Georgia, and it scared the crap out of us, we were caught unawares, is was a sudden gust, being a full keel monohull, made by Skookum, she righted herself and we picked up the stuff that went flying, kept on our merry way to Seattle . ....
I can handle it. Hell, I've been knocked down and had my ass kicked and I wasn't even at sea! One time I was in my Wharram Hinemoa and got hit so hard by a rogue wave, I flew over the trampoline, thru the mainsail, and into the other hull! And the washboards were in place!!!

Another time, in a mono somewheres west of Key West, got caught in a nasty patch and pitchpoled, but it was so shallow, the mast head hit the sand bottom, and collapsed. The centrifugal motion plus sudden stop knocked the engine off its mounts, through the main saloon, and slammed into the v berth crushing the holding tank. Eeww. The boat somehow wallowed back on her feet, allowing me time to grab the last cold beer.

Did I mash that big red button?

I did not.

One time on a vacation with my uncle, a bunch of us were on a little picnic up the Mekong a ways. I was ashore peeing (it was a no discharge zone) and I ran into a freaking tiger!!! Maybe you saw the movie.

Just sayin'.

Ah, the Internet. Where we all have M16s/AKs with battle packs of ammo, and enough money we don't even have to put punctuation in our sentences

I'm organizing Knockdown Night here in Beaufort.

True (ish) stories welcomed but not required.

I'm a fan of no rules.
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Old 18-04-2013, 13:43   #137
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

I have to love the statement that said the Russian ship was 2400Km of teh coast of Ireland!. ( well so is New York)

heres an amusing bit

"With no crew or warning lights, the ship Lyubov Orlova has been adrift for two months and maritime authorities had been uncertain of its precise location."

I bet if it was a russian sub, we would know where it was!!

Dave
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Old 18-04-2013, 13:46   #138
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

Could we google earth and find it?
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:41   #139
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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I met several survivors from that event. Yet me tell you , that some would have died remaining inside the boat.. This is the trouble with armchair sailors. No real experience.

The fact is having talked to several rescued people over the years and sailed through a few nasties myself , is that crew dynamic is the big forgotten factor. You cannot flay leisure crew through a storm that is frightening the life out of them , or where morale has plumetted. I know one skipper that was forced to hide his Epirb to stop the crew pressing the button.

We rarely here the human side, primarily because of defamation laws. So we tend to get recounted tales about the conditions and the machine , ie , gear failure etc.


Who knows what went on inside that cabin , we weren't there. They are all alive , the boat is irrelevant as are its costs. Would you say the same , if the skipper has pushed on and lost the boat or a life

Who knows, we weren't there.

Its not defending these people's, there could be all sorts of side stories

But you can take it that I don't have any time for the blondie Haslar viewpoint.

Dave

"Armchair sailor with no real experience?"

Just because the boat did survive doesn't mean that the boat's survial was a certainty. I find it hard to believe that sailors in that race were beginners or "armchair sailors." They made their best choice at the time. The boat survived -- good -- so did all the crew -- even better.

Unless someone here was on the boat in question, we don't really know all the ins and outs of what happened. Personally I do not think people abandoned their beloved sailboats lightly.
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:42   #140
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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You might read the report again , you might read about dismantled vessels etc.

The fact is the reason most people take to a liferaft , is they have formed a conclusion that the interior of the boat simply isn't safe.

As one chap, said to me , stung by that criticism, " it was like a washing machine inside , with the furniture breaking off the hull and throwing itself at us , and they suggest we stay inside that !!!

What you must listen to is people recounting , ie the human element . The fasnet tragedy showed its not about abandoning boats , ( many crews were rescued complete from liferafts.) but about poor decision inn making in being in that place at that time.

I use the term armchair sailor to mean anyone not there at the time , that includes me.

The next life you're in a lifeboat , take a look at the huge huge care , engineering and design and vast costs that going making sure the vessel can not just survive a knockdown , but more importantly the crew and vessel can continue to function afterwards. Its an eye opener ( then compare the crap that passes for engineering in most boats )

Ps ever seen an engine break its mountings and come out into the cabin , its a scary sight to think that might suddenly be in your chest !


Dave
A boat can survive a knockdown and yet occupants could be quite badly hurt.
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:44   #141
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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That's all I was saying , that the populist cliche is just that , a cliche . Every situation has to be evaluated based on the exact circumstances applying at that moment.

Here's the actual paragraph

"able 4.19 shows that with one exception, the abandoned yachts had been knocked down to past horizontal, and all of them had suffered severe damage to their hull, steering or rig. 17 were "calculated" abandonments, in that the crew remained on board the yacht until help in the form of a helicopter, ship or another yacht arrived. In several of these cases the life raft was used to effect transfer to the rescue vehicle but the raft was launched only as a means of transfer. Only six yachts were abandoned before help was at hand. Of these six yachts two have not been recovered and may be considered to have been in sinking condition at the time they were abandoned. Two had suffered knockdowns and major damage to superstructure so that although they were recovered, at the time of
abandonment there was excellent reason to believe that they were unlikely to survive a further knockdown. Thus only two yachts were abandoned simply on the grounds that the life raft was likely to provide more security than the Virtually undamaged hull of the yacht.
4.41 The 17 skippers who took the conscious decision to abandon to a helicopter, ship or another yacht believed that at the time there was an unacceptably high risk to the crew if they remained on board the yacht. It would be Improper to question these decisions without lengthy and detailed Investigations of the circumstances which led to them. Such investigations would, it is believed, be pointless; there is certainly no evidence that those who originated distress calls did so for any reason other than that they believed their yachts were in grave and imminent danger, nor that conditions of grave and Imminent danger did not In fact exist."

There is simply no evidence one way or the other to justify the cliche ! , it a " all depends"

15 yachtsmen died , only a few as a result of improper abandonment ( one was a heart attack )

I merely use all this to indicate , that armchair quarterbacking is just that . Comments liked " jerk" have no place in this lexicon ,there is no , absolutely no value in needless death . If you feel unsafe , its your feeling .

Dave

So ... we're debating the obvious.
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:46   #142
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

"
Just because an object made out of plastic, wood and metal survives months after being abandoned does not mean that the soft meat bodies that were inside would have fared as well."

Exactly.

I love my boat, but I would never put her safety above the safety of crew.
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:48   #143
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

I'm pretty sure you're misintepreting those posts. He was responding to me and people like me, who he thought was saying that they shouldn't have pushed the button but stayed on board (that wasn't what I said back then, though, but that is all cleared up now). Read the entire conversation, starting with me in post 109:


Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:52   #144
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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I'm pretty sure you're misintepreting those posts. He was responding to me and people like me, who he thought was saying that they shouldn't have pushed the button but stayed on board (that wasn't what I said back then, though, but that is all cleared up now). Read the entire conversation, starting with me in post 109:
I was responding to people, who pour scorn on somebody that abandons teh boat, even though we dont really dont know the facts.

There has always been this cohort of sailors that have a kind of "go down with teh ship" mentality. ( or thats how they have they have) I suspect however they were first in the lifeboats when the titanic went down.

Dave
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Old 18-04-2013, 14:54   #145
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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I was responding to people, who pour scorn on somebody that abandons teh boat, even though we dont really dont know the facts.

There has always been this cohort of sailors that have a kind of "go down with teh ship" mentality. ( or thats how they have they have) I suspect however they were first in the lifeboats when the titanic went down.

Dave
LOL, okay, but our conversation still shows that you weren't saying what Raku thinks you were saying.
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Old 18-04-2013, 15:13   #146
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I was responding to people, who pour scorn on somebody that abandons teh boat, even though we dont really dont know the facts.

There has always been this cohort of sailors that have a kind of "go down with teh ship" mentality. ( or thats how they have they have) I suspect however they were first in the lifeboats when the titanic went down.

Dave

Thank you for the clarification! I was getting the feeling that you were arguing the opposite, and i was confused -- "He usually makes such sense!"

I don't want to go down with the ship. I'd be very sad if she went down -- but not suicidal.
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Old 18-04-2013, 15:14   #147
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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LOL, okay, but our conversation still shows that you weren't saying what Raku thinks you were saying.

Yeah, I have just come back and did not see the whole thread. I am glad for his clarification and appreciate his patience.
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Old 18-04-2013, 15:15   #148
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pirate Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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A boat can survive a knockdown and yet occupants could be quite badly hurt.
This is very true... and knockdowns do not let you know in advance.... my crew on a trip had just stepped up into the pilot house when we were knocked over... she flew backwards down into the saloon then disappeared into the galley... with a loud crash.
Could not sit for days with the bruising round the lower back and tailbone... lucky she didn't break her back really...
I was fine...
I was leaning against the starboard windows so just laid down briefly till she spilled and came back up... .
In those conditions just heave to.. wedge in and wait for it to pass over... sooner or later it does..
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Old 18-04-2013, 16:35   #149
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Actually lads, Raku was quoting me. Just to keep things straight.
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Old 18-04-2013, 16:49   #150
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Re: Abandon Ship! The Rescue of the Crew of Wolfhound

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Actually lads, Raku was quoting me. Just to keep things straight.
Foolish (awful nickname! Sorry!) they had it right. The person whose view I had garbled was "GoBoatingNow." Really.
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