5 days in the liferaft.

[Franziska]

Makes me wonder if the rafts should not have an inbuilt compartment for the safety gear bag, rather than a loose bag tied in.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Tony Bullimore had a hand operated RO unit, too, hearing him working it was how the Australian Navy found him way down in the Southern Ocean.

Ann

Did they hear him swearing ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Makes me wonder if the rafts should not have an inbuilt compartment for the safety gear bag, rather than a loose bag tied in.

Mine do.

We keep most of the supplies in the grab bag, but there is enough to survive (RORC offshore kit) in both rafts, in a pocket.

Avon Ocean 4 man x 2, getting old but professionally serviced on time and in my presence and still holding up well.

[ka4wja]

I'm sad to hear of this, and no matter what we think (or say here), it will not help those lost, but maybe we can help ourselves and others?
Over the last 3 days, I've read this thread, the links here, and looked at some other info about this tragedy....and decided I could add a few brief comments that might be useful...

1) First off, my condolences to the family and friends of the departed...my prayers are with you all.


2) I will not second-guess their decision to board the liferaft....if the decks were awash, or close to it, there are few that would question that, especially in heavy weather in near-offshore waters...and, I think I would've done the same.

I'm not too familiar with weather patterns (nor typical typhoon paths) around Philippines...and Pelagic might be correct in the captain and crew's assumption about their weather...and deliveries are of course different than cruising...
But, leaving port (Davao) and heading out to sea with a typhoon nearby??
That is odd to me, a N. Atlantic sailor...and something I would not have done.


3) But, the main points I'm typing about this evening are:
a) Search And Rescue (SAR) assets/services available in most areas of the world.
b) EPIRB's and how they work!

About six years ago, Beth Leonard wrote a nice article, and sidebar, about these matters....and I posted a lot of info about these matters, along with much info from COSPAS-SARSAT, etc., both here and on SSCA forums..

{I also updated some info a couple years ago, after some conversations of my onw with USCG lieutenant (in Wash DC) and two USCG senior chiefs (one in Virginia, and one in Florida), about the realities of SAR operations when beyond USCG helo range, especially in offshore waters under the SAR responsibility of second or third world nations!}

Please have a look here:
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-146617.html

Just a few of the basic take-aways:
a) In some areas of the world, there will be little or no actual rescue, unless you can prove that you are in need, and then it may take a while...despite an EPIRB activation, or two...



b) In many areas of the world, SAR activities will be started only if the RCC can confirm you are out there and need rescue (using a second / third means of Distress signaling, and/or the RCC confirming with your shore-side contact where you are and that you most probably need rescue!)

c) Being able to send Distress by a second or third means, such as MF/HF-DSC Radio, and/or INMARSAT-C (and/or VHF-DSC for close-range signaling), although is an major theme of the GMDSS (where the second "s" stands for "system"), this is often overlooked by many pleasure boat sailors...
And, take note that while EPIRB's activate a COSPAS-SARSAT alert, and that goes to the RCC's directly, both MF/HF-DSC and INMARSAT-C are received by BOTH the RCC's/shore-stations AND all SOLAS vessels in range/in your region, all simultaneously... (VHF-DSC can also do the same, if you are nearby / within 25 miles)
{Of course, if you've waited until the decks are awash, batteries are submerged, fixed-mount radios and sat terminal are dead, etc....then all you got left is the EPIRB and handheld VHF....and hope you have a handheld VHF-DSC radio..}

But, please read this whole thread....'cuz there is a LOT there!
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-146617.html
And, understand that matters in third world areas have not improved, and are in some places, it's worse...(and if in these areas and needing to send Distress, please send Distress by MF/HF-DSC radio, INMARSAT-C, and VHF-DSC radio...as well as EPIRB, 'cuz you may need to signal your need for rescue to other vessels, in addition to the RCC, and not solely rely on an RCC to start SAR activities in order to alert other vessels in your area that you are in need...)



4) Further:
a) with newer handheld VHF radios, with DSC (and GPS built-in), I agree with Dockhead, etc., and think one or two of these (along with a few extra Li-On battery packs), would be a great addition to your ditch-kit, etc...
b) yes, I too, have basic emergency supplies (including survival water rations for 6 persons, for 3 - 4 days?) secured inside raft (Winslow 6-man Offshore rescue, w/ lots of options)...
but, I also have water in ditch kit...(and plan on adding one of A64's water jugs)
c) Ann, Pelagic, etc. comments on weather, fatigue, etc....are spot on!



Fair winds.

John

P.S. While my contacts and conversations are with US officials, my conversations have been regarding SAR outside of US waters / outside of other 1st world nations' waters....
In my conversations with USCG officers and senior enlisted personnel on these matters, it was made clear that they (USCG and US Navy) will attempt to coordinate SAR for all US-flagged vessels, no matter where in the world they may be, although likely not using their assets, they will attempt to coordinate the SAR...but, in some areas of the world (3rd world nations' SAR areas) there may be little that they can do...
(paraphrasing: "you're on your own", and "make sure you can signal Distress in multiple ways")
FYI, there are locations where the US has assets (USCG and US Navy) that are far outside their SAR areas, and in some circumstances in these areas, you can get lucky, but don't count on it!

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I'm sad to hear of this, and no matter what we think (or say here), it will not help those lost, but maybe we can help ourselves and others?
Over the last 3 days, I've read this thread, the links here, and looked at some other info about this tragedy....and decided I could add a few brief comments that might be useful...

1) First off, my condolences to the family and friends of the departed...my prayers are with you all.


2) I will not second-guess their decision to board the liferaft....if the decks were awash, or close to it, there are few that would question that, especially in heavy weather in near-offshore waters...and, I think I would've done the same.

I'm not too familiar with weather patterns (nor typical typhoon paths) around Philippines...and Pelagic might be correct in the captain and crew's assumption about their weather...and deliveries are of course different than cruising...
But, leaving port (Davao) and heading out to sea with a typhoon nearby??
That is odd to me, a N. Atlantic sailor...and something I would not have done.


3) But, the main points I'm typing about this evening are:
a) Search And Rescue (SAR) assets/services available in most areas of the world.
b) EPIRB's and how they work!

About six years ago, Beth Leonard wrote a nice article, and sidebar, about these matters....and I posted a lot of info about these matters, along with much info from COSPAS-SARSAT, etc., both here and on SSCA forums..

{I also updated some info a couple years ago, after some conversations of my onw with USCG lieutenant (in Wash DC) and two USCG senior chiefs (one in Virginia, and one in Florida), about the realities of SAR operations when beyond USCG helo range, especially in offshore waters under the SAR responsibility of second or third world nations!}

Please have a look here:
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-146617.html

Just a few of the basic take-aways:
a) In some areas of the world, there will be little or no actual rescue, unless you can prove that you are in need, and then it may take a while...despite an EPIRB activation, or two...



b) In many areas of the world, SAR activities will be started only if the RCC can confirm you are out there and need rescue (using a second / third means of Distress signaling, and/or the RCC confirming with your shore-side contact where you are and that you most probably need rescue!)

c) Being able to send Distress by a second or third means, such as MF/HF-DSC Radio, and/or INMARSAT-C (and/or VHF-DSC for close-range signaling), although is an major theme of the GMDSS (where the second "s" stands for "system"), this is often overlooked by many pleasure boat sailors...
And, take note that while EPIRB's activate a COSPAS-SARSAT alert, and that goes to the RCC's directly, both MF/HF-DSC and INMARSAT-C are received by BOTH the RCC's/shore-stations AND all SOLAS vessels in range/in your region, all simultaneously... (VHF-DSC can also do the same, if you are nearby / within 25 miles)
{Of course, if you've waited until the decks are awash, batteries are submerged, fixed-mount radios and sat terminal are dead, etc....then all you got left is the EPIRB and handheld VHF....and hope you have a handheld VHF-DSC radio..}

But, please read this whole thread....'cuz there is a LOT there!
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-146617.html
And, understand that matters in third world areas have not improved, and are in some places, it's worse...(and if in these areas and needing to send Distress, please send Distress by MF/HF-DSC radio, INMARSAT-C, and VHF-DSC radio...as well as EPIRB, 'cuz you may need to signal your need for rescue to other vessels, in addition to the RCC, and not solely rely on an RCC to start SAR activities in order to alert other vessels in your area that you are in need...)



4) Further:
a) with newer handheld VHF radios, with DSC (and GPS built-in), I agree with Dockhead, etc., and think one or two of these (along with a few extra Li-On battery packs), would be a great addition to your ditch-kit, etc...
b) yes, I too, have basic emergency supplies (including survival water rations for 6 persons, for 3 - 4 days?) secured inside raft (Winslow 6-man Offshore rescue, w/ lots of options)...
but, I also have water in ditch kit...(and plan on adding one of A64's water jugs)
c) Ann, Pelagic, etc. comments on weather, fatigue, etc....are spot on!



Fair winds.

John

P.S. While my contacts and conversations are with US officials, my conversations have been regarding SAR outside of US waters / outside of other 1st world nations' waters....
In my conversations with USCG officers and senior enlisted personnel on these matters, it was made clear that they (USCG and US Navy) will attempt to coordinate SAR for all US-flagged vessels, no matter where in the world they may be, although likely not using their assets, they will attempt to coordinate the SAR...but, in some areas of the world (3rd world nations' SAR areas) there may be little that they can do...
(paraphrasing: "you're on your own", and "make sure you can signal Distress in multiple ways")
FYI, there are locations where the US has assets (USCG and US Navy) that are far outside their SAR areas, and in some circumstances in these areas, you can get lucky, but don't count on it!

One extra asset might be a SW transceiver - even a handheld. A distress call identifying as a US vessel (or wherever you hail from) with coordinates might bolster other device distress signals

[ka4wja]

RPZ,
Huh??

Originally Posted by RPZ

One extra asset might be a SW transceiver - even a handheld. A distress call identifying as a US vessel (or wherever you hail from) with coordinates might bolster other device distress signals

Have you not read the threads??

An MF/HF-DSC-Radio IS a "SW transceiver"!
And, if you understand the GMDSS, you'll know that while the Philippines are not actually GMDSS compliant (as of 2014), the other nations surrounding them (including Aus and USA) are...as are the 1000's of SOLAS vessels...
And, it is DSC (MF/HF) is what you'd need to signal these vessels, not just a "SW transceiver"...

My friend, I think you would do well, by reading the whole referenced thread and the links there in...

fair winds.

John

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

RPZ,
Huh??

Have you not read the threads??

An MF/HF-DSC-Radio IS a "SW transceiver"!
And, if you understand the GMDSS, you'll know that while the Philippines are not actually GMDSS compliant (as of 2014), the other nations surrounding them (including Aus and USA) are...as are the 1000's of SOLAS vessels...
And, it is DSC (MF/HF) is what you'd need to signal these vessels, not just a "SW transceiver"...

My friend, I think you would do well, by reading the whole referenced thread and the links there in...

fair winds.

John

I'm talking about a regular HAM SW. You hit the transmit button, you speak in an audible voice. Do you know what that is? Those who do may have gotten my point.

[ka4wja]

yep, I got your point....just thinking you may not really be clear on the GMDSS...
We are talking about different things.

And, while I again do get your point and I've been a ham (at sea and on shore) 3/4 of my life, I think when discussing EPIRB's and contacting vessels close to you, bring up ham radio is fairly off-topic and, in my opinion, using the term "SW transceiver" is a bit disingenuous.

But, back to my point...
I think you would do well learning about the GMDSS, as it's been around since 1992, and fully-implemented, worldwide, by Jan 1999...

Fair winds my friend.

John

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

yep, I got your point....just thinking you may not really be clear on the GMDSS...
We are talking about different things.

And, while I again do get your point and I've been a ham (at sea and on shore) 3/4 of my life, I think when discussing EPIRB's and contacting vessels close to you, bring up ham radio is fairly off-topic and, in my opinion, using the term "SW transceiver" is a bit disingenuous.

But, back to my point...
I think you would do well learning about the GMDSS, as it's been around since 1992, and fully-implemented, worldwide, by Jan 1999...

Fair winds my friend.

John

Disingenuous? What is there to be confused with the definitive term "transceiver"? I, am not mixed up about anything to do with GMDSS. A SW transmission can be picked up by anyone with a SW receiver.

If you are going to treat EPIRBs as a topic in which nothing else, no other devices in emergency signaling are necessary, complimentary, or worthy of consideration, you could simply have posted your "facts", and ignored any responses.

You've invested some time, and money no doubt, in an institutional course, talked to a few people in a service branch of thousands of similarly ranking people and now think you know how the governments and navies of about 20 countries of the world work.

[james247]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What were they doing in the liferaft? the boat was found on a beach all be it damaged.

Rule 1 as I was taught stay with the boat even if it means sitting in the life raft tendered to the boat.
Was a grab bag taken.
You really can't rely on the stores in the raft particularly if you have never seen it opened
I always insist on seeing it opened and repacked when tested

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by james247

Rule 1 as I was taught stay with the boat even if it means sitting in the life raft tendered to the boat.
Was a grab bag taken.
You really can't rely on the stores in the raft particularly if you have never seen it opened
I always insist on seeing it opened and repacked when tested

For every Rule, there are exceptions!

[hellosailor]

"In the beginning, there were five beating hearts in the life raft."
There's the first hint that this is not journalism. Three souls on board, plus two tiny dogs. And as every life raft test and review in the last twenty years has emphasized, a life raft that is only half loaded SHOULD be expected to roll and tumble like mad in heavy weather.
They also don't mention the yacht was apparently Pyewacket (when WC owned her) same name as a certain enchanted cat. Sad end for a fine boat that apparently fell into less loving hands.

[ka4wja]

RPZ, et al,
Sorry haven't around for a bit, had some family matters that came up.



Specifically to RPZ,
In regards to EPIRBS I was referring to the facts from COSPAS-SARSAT...
In regards to actual SAR operations / rescue, I was referring to facts from USCG, IMO/GMDSS, etc., and from actual, real-world results / experiences (written about by Beth and Evans, and others)...
I was NOT referring to my words here as the facts...
Sorry for the misunderstanding...


I would be remiss though, if I didn't continue to encourage you to actually read about the GMDSS, about COSPAS-SARSAT, about EPIRB's, about SOLAS, etc. all directly from their official sources and from those presenting actual real-world facts (not just what someone at a boat show said, nor what is written in some regulation, nor what "everyone knows"), because unfortunately there are many myths out there parading around as facts, and these can really effect people in a bad way...
{kinda like that totally incorrect Youtube video of a USCG Lieutenant mis-describing how DSC works!! Not sure why the USCG doesn't just hunt that thing down...but guess since it was a free talk at a yacht club it isn't USCG copywrited??}
(translation: internet myths can cause loss of life)
And, all of that info is right here for you, for free....just read the threads and follow the links....no subscriptions, no fees, no BS...just the facts!



BTW, as great of a resource ham radio is (yes, I've been a ham for ~ 3/4 of my life at sea and on-shore, and love it! and, while I have taken many courses, not just GMDSS but also liferaft deployment/safety, etc., much of my sailing knowledge is from my own personal, real-world experiences sailing offshore over the past 50 years, on own boats and others....ever since my first cruise in 1965 as a kid with my parents...dozens of offshore passages over the years, multiple Atlantic crossings, some before GPS and some recently, etc..)
It's just that ham radio isn't part of the GMDSS....and won't signal a vessel near you, or within a day's sail from you, etc., etc...
Yes, we all have turned on the rig, heard a station from far off, called him and had a great QSO....and if asked, not one ham would ever refuse to help, and most of my fellow hams would "move heaven and earth" to get you assistance and get your distress alert to the proper authorities...
But, the elegance of the GMDSS is that if you use it, it will get your distress alert to just about everyone, almost instantly....and with your exact coordinates, etc., all in perfect copy...{sorry about the rant....just that I LOVE ham radio....but it's not a substitute for the GMDSS.}


Please forgive my insistence here...but...
The 2 main reasons I'm continuing to recommend you actually read all of this info are:
--- so everyone else who stops by this thread isn't lead down a path of misinformation.
--- like a majority of sailors, you seem to be unaware of exactly how the COSPAS-SARSAT system works, unaware of how the overall GMDSS works, etc., the how/why registration is important, etc., and especially how any SAR authority / RCC / naval or merchant vessel actually would attempt any search and rescue....

To be clear, what happens in US coastal waters, by USCG, etc. (which is what ~ 90% of US-based sailors know about), is not what is done on the high seas and in remote areas of the world, where time and distance are significant factors in both determining actual Distress and in coordinating any SAR operations, and even worse are the actual practices in areas of the world where SAR operations are the responsibility of mostly well-meaning but under-equipped and poorly staffed 3rd World nations...(and unfortunately money, as well as sometimes language and politics, also hinder SAR operations....no, that is NOT supposed to happen, ever...but it does...sorry about that...)



Anyway, hope this clears things up, finally...

Fair winds.

John

[bouncycastle]

Sad for anybody to lose their life .
Human life is very limited to a water supply
There exists a type of solar sea water distiller system made to float on the water similar to children's swim ring with a transparent plastic roof collector that makes 1 liter a hour of water when the sun shines .
It is inflatable and takes up no room when deflated . It is easy to keep in grab bag or inside a life raft .

With a good water the survival times is in the weeks 30 to 65 days with no food

Without water survival time can vary from ~2 days in extreme heat to up to as much as ~11 days in cooler more humid regions

( ~11 days has been recorded several times with prisoners in prisons doing hunger and thirst protests .The cooler conditions and lack of activity and more humid regions in prisons allowed for extended periods of life with no water . Also some earth quake victims trapped in colder weather have survived longer periods than 6 days without food or water before being rescued )

Age and any underlying medical conditions will reduce survival time without water and food in a life raft or or some flotation device .Warm climates with sun its hard to expect to last more than ~5 days without freshwater


One relation of mine in WW2 survived 10 days clinging to wooden raft in the Irish sea in summer with no water or food .
Their liberation ship sank before they could dress in warmer cloths so they were in light summer cloths
Their liberation ship sank in the irish sea one day before the war in Europe finished a few hundred miles south of Liverpool when the bottom of the ship fell out .
The welded together liberation ships often broke apart and sank quickly when the ships welding came apart .

Twelve crew clung onto the wooden raft that was lashed to deck made to float off of the if the ship sank quickly such as torpedo explosion event would do .

After three days there was only 3 crew left .
They got lucky after a week and seagull landed on the raft and they grabbed it and ate it raw .
That gave them some extra water .

Rescue was delayed due to the war had finished and it took a few days to realize there was a ship overdue to arrive in Liverpool

I always have myriad of small 2 liter bottles filled with fresh water wrapped in netting and tied to rope and tied to life raft and that is the first thing to be grabbed along with the life raft .

The fresh water floats and can act as extra sea anchor drag device .

I also have few 20 liter canister cans also ready to grab in sinking event .
After that there is the food medicine and then the grab bag .
I work on the assumption that older folk like me with underlying medical conditions will last less time without water but might last a much long time with water.

My next investment will be one of the inflatable sea water solar distiller to make fresh water .

I am surprised in the story their boat turned up later washed up and not sunk .
That is fairly rare event after a deep keel ballasted boat heavier than water taken in lots of water in bad seas doesn't sink .
There must have been a air trap of sorts for that to happen .
However if the crew remained on the boat their extra weight might have caused the boat to rock more and allow the air to escape the air traps and cause it to sink .

One guy to save his boat inflated his rubber dingy inside the boat and kept it afloat .However there is risk that sharp objects in the boat could pierce the rubber boats inflated sections and cause it to lose buoyancy.

It might be an idea to buy a old life raft past its serviceable life and use that as last resort and inflate that in the main cabin to extend the time before the main craft will sink .

Many ways to keep boats afloat exist but always good to have best life rafts with suitable solutions to allow for drifting at sea for extended time periods when in third world regions .

If a boat sank south of canary Island the expected time to drift across the Atlantic in life raft would be some 60 to 90 days if there was no mayday signal given out from EPIRBS or similar solutions .

One large y aught wth three American crew on it atlantic crossing got demasted and the engine failed and they lacked good radio and Epirb .They then took ~90 days to sail with jury rig in those notoriously calm sections of the ocean from the USA coast to the Azores .It meant their 4 week supply of food ran out and they were eating barnacles of the boat hull when they arrived to the Azores ,They had to be hospitalized for extensive period due to nearly ~60 days with virtualy no food .

Modern sailing has improved but if the Murpys law kicks in the Epirb dont work or similar best to plan how to last on life raft for extensive time periods and have learnt how to use fish lines and hooks to catch food and have good water supplies