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Old 16-08-2010, 18:21   #31
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th ekind of blue water boat depends on the folks sailing it. i prefer heavy with attached rudder. i have sailed fin/spade--was a big handful in heavy weather, whereas we watched as a ketch just breezed on by us as if it were having the time of its life. i will love sailing my formosa. i have loved living on her. she is steady in a wake and she is able to take a bit of a blow without screaming off. my ericson screams off..
as for meouw type critters on board--my kat loves being with his momms. he is a boat kat. he has sailed 6000+ miles in the gulf and didnt seem to mind, although , now seems bored...the litter box wasnt a problem in the qberth. cats have been traditional critters on board for centuries--they are excellent at the job of keeping things out of boats--mousies, rats, roaches, thingies. he stood his watches and did well. he walks on leash, so the tether wasnt a bad thing--he likes it. i like to tether him on sea passages--so he can get around below decks, but not on deck, if i am sailing a performance cruiser. on my boat, he will have run of the boat even while sailing, as this is a heavy boat and doesnt sling critters into the sea.

everyone you ask will say a different answer to what makes up a proper cruising boat. \
]do sail with many folk son many boats before investing in your "dream boat" as that descriptor could easily change after you see and sail "XXXXX" boat..whatever that is....

everyone learns in different ways. i didnt have a small dink for sailing until i was 48 yrs old. i sailed from age 7 in 36 ft gaff rigged sloop built in 1903. national historic treasure. some folks feel the best way to learn sailing is in dinks. i feel the best way to learn sailing is the way you know best to learn. could be as a charter guest learning from the captain. could be as a guest on another folks' boat. could be in a dink--what ever way you feel you will LEARN the best. i feel one on one is easiest way to learn. doesnt matter kind of boat, as long as you SAIL.

there are many boats at many prices these days --this buyers market will last a long time. dont worry about buying until you have sailed as many boats as you can, and after you have taken the lessons for sailing and boating safety.

there are some clubs that teach sailing in small boats--might see what you can do about learning with them ..is a good idea--the small boats do have immediate responsivity---but i wouldnt sail only small boats whil elearning---sail all , sail often and sail lots. nothing like going out sailing for learning to sail.....
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Old 16-08-2010, 18:21   #32
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In addition, hang out at the local sailors' "table of knowledge" - opinions are like you-know-what and none of the gossip acquired thusly should be taken without a healthy dash of salt.
Great advice. On my first liveaboard boat the freshwater pump started cycling every ten minutes or so, and I concluded that I must have a leak somewhere. After checking the obvious trouble spots such as the water heater, I traced every inch of every water line, and couldn't find a drop. So then, one by one, I removed and capped every water line in the system. The pump still cycled every ten minutes. How was this possible?

I went up to the yacht club, plopped down at the table of knowledge, and told my tale of woe. The response was short and simple: "That pump has an internal check valve. Rebuild it."

I bought a round of drinks, of course. And taught myself how to rebuild a diaphragm pump the following day.
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Old 16-08-2010, 19:21   #33
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Yes, seriously

The kitties are coming with, even if I have to clean their box 3 times a day

Although, there will be a period of adjustment and if any of them are miserable, they will go to their alternate residence.

~Sherry
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Old 17-08-2010, 08:26   #34
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the difference--the garden ketch before 1980 has fiberglass over wood decks if the decking of teakwood has been removed. after 1980 the decks are frp. .
Hi Zeehag,
Does this mean formosa51/force50/Vagabond47/CT54 built after 1980 don't have the timber core, so deck rot that these boats get a bad reputation from won't happen?
Vic
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Old 17-08-2010, 09:23   #35
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Hi Zeehag,
Does this mean formosa51/force50/Vagabond47/CT54 built after 1980 don't have the timber core, so deck rot that these boats get a bad reputation from won't happen?
Vic
all the boats built in taiwan, from hans christian to tayana to formosa to ct to hardin to vagabond to every single one--not just the formosas and cts and such, were made with teak decks. these were screwed to ply wood decking. this is still a practice. some of the young sun and transworld models are cored frp decks. those are far more difficult to repair after the screwed decking fiasco than are the older ones. go figger. so the alleged advantage of frp decking in any taiwanese built boat is overcome by the need to remove the screw holes and start the decking over without them. the frp decks are cored with phillipine mahogany. go figger. the filipine mahogany is what is the problems it rots as fast as soft pine, as the 2 woods are so similar. both soft.

now, the main reason for the bad rap of formosa and ct and taiwanese boats comes primarily from folks not knowing how to care for teak decking, especially teak decking with screws in it.
to replace the regular wood with glass overlay, is easy--i am having the under side--the wood--remioved and replaced with epoxy impregnated marine ply and adding glass to the decking under sprit. after folks repair these babies, they are fine and solid cruisers.

saying all formosas are crap is same as saying all huntere are crap. or all bendytoys are crap or what...isnt a fair thing to say, as there are many of the marque sailing without problems, and the major problems lay with certain families/yards making the boats in not knowledgeable manner. is all repairable, as in any other boat.

as for vagabond, force 50 , et alii--they are similar to the formosa/ct/etc---but they still have the wood decking with teak--with or without frp. i would not pass up one of those you mentioned just because of the deck. in passing up these marques, you are only shorting yourself the joy of viewing he most awesome interior of any boats i have ever seen or sailed. beautiful...the vagabond is my boat on steroids...magnificent. if properly cared for, these bots will last for a long time,.the hulls are nearly 2 inches in thickness. strong and study.

for living aboard and deep water cruising, these are magnificent.

when you watch these boats sail with all sails full and a bone in her teeth, is a beautiful thing--they are awe inspiring specimens of sailing boats.

firefly--your cats should adapt well and enjoy wherever you are. i do recommend the leash/tether thing for a bit--so they get accustomed to it--i use bubbys when we are underway so he doesnt fall overboad while e sail. kat will be a bitleery of the sails--they look like predatory wings to kitty...but they watch and watch and nothing happens to them so they mellow out after a bit. i make a scratching.clawing post outof mast or table legs with a length of line so bubby knows the boat is his and he is a happy kat....make a special place for kitties to have--each one --then they should be fine. i have a kat ladder of old mooring lines i braided for his return to boat in the event he falls ob--but he doesnt do that anymore--he did 2 times his first year--and had the harness and leash on so he didnt hit water--he scrambled back up by himself and learned about getting close to edge of boat.....
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Old 17-08-2010, 12:56   #36
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The kitties are coming with, even if I have to clean their box 3 times a day

Although, there will be a period of adjustment and if any of them are miserable, they will go to their alternate residence.

~Sherry
I wouldn't imagine a cat would like being on the water, but many posts seems to indicate they do fine.

For me, the litter box would be the biggest issue. When my wife and I get a boat, it will likely be without pets.
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Old 17-08-2010, 14:50   #37
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cats actually dont mind the water life. they are great on boats--have been traditionally on sailing ships for centuries. they catch lil critters that sneak on board and eat things not spozed to be eaten by lil critters, and they keep feets warm when they are sooo colld. they are good at telling you when things are wrong on board---they have ways --they know what their home is spozed to do--if there is a fire of something out of order they can hear or smell, they will let you know--mine let me know about my genny fire and my pressure water system leak
the fire was putout before it could do any damage--whew!! and the water leak was heard by kat before i heard it--saved us gallons of water ....

litter pan isnt a big deal here, as i have the perfect kat--NEVER poos outside the box nor does he pee anywhere but inside his pan and doesnt make a mess unless i am slow to clean it. then he will scratch some sand onto the people floor to remind me...he gets qberth in a boat on which we sailcruise in gulf of mexico and he has the forepeak in mine when under way. normally, when we arent under wayl, his box is on the coach house roof under a tarp. i am lucky--my kat loves his momms and lives his life to please me. no one else will feed him when he is hungry--he has to love me and adapt to my world--they do that nicely, if given the opportunity, and no other choice. kinda like a 5 yr old kid.

cats are people oriented,not place oriented--folks donot realize the socializing of cat includes you as their family. they donot forget like dogs do--takes them years. dogs forget in 3 days to a week. many will abandon a cat because they are moving and they think the critter is home -based instead of human and family based in culture and actions. the cat will mourn the loss of its family for years, i have watched cats o this for many years---my own included as i find homes for some, others would mourn the loss of that play friend and family member. one even did the mourning for 5 yrs, until she died.
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Old 17-08-2010, 16:20   #38
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Sherry:

Bought my boat 3 years ago and am still learning. I have a 1983 Nauticat 36 motorsailer and am in love with her. Good strong (built for north sea) boat but motorsailer is not for everyone. Listen to Zeehag - she gives good advice!
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Old 17-08-2010, 16:45   #39
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Zeehag,
The few grey cells I have left tend to float around in a vaccuum, so sometimes I have to go over stuff a few times to make sure I've got it...

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
all the boats built in taiwan, from hans christian to tayana to formosa to ct to hardin to vagabond to every single one--not just the formosas and cts and such, were made with teak decks. these were screwed to ply wood decking. this is still a practice. some of the young sun and transworld models are cored frp decks. those are far more difficult to repair after the screwed decking fiasco than are the older ones. go figger. so the alleged advantage of frp decking in any taiwanese built boat is overcome by the need to remove the screw holes and start the decking over without them. the frp decks are cored with phillipine mahogany. go figger. the filipine mahogany is what is the problems it rots as fast as soft pine, as the 2 woods are so similar. both soft.

now, the main reason for the bad rap of formosa and ct and taiwanese boats comes primarily from folks not knowing how to care for teak decking, especially teak decking with screws in it.
to replace the regular wood with glass overlay, is easy--i am having the under side--the wood--remioved and replaced with epoxy impregnated marine ply and adding glass to the decking under sprit. after folks repair these babies, they are fine and solid cruisers.


as for vagabond, force 50 , et alii--they are similar to the formosa/ct/etc---but they still have the wood decking with teak--with or without frp.

for living aboard and deep water cruising, these are magnificent.

when you watch these boats sail with all sails full and a bone in her teeth, is a beautiful thing--they are awe inspiring specimens of sailing boats.

...
So, what I'm trying to get clear in my mind is...

1) pre 1980 teakies were teak screwed to ply. Best fix is to remove teak, replace old rotted ply with modern rot proof material, eg impregnated marine ply, and glass over. Is this right?


2) after 1980 the construction changed to frp sandwich using soft timber, so screw hole leaks lead to core rot. Best fix is to remove teak, cut top layer of frp and remove soggy core, replace core with modern rot proof material, and frp over? Right so far?


3) Do you know if any builders used frp without timber core, so teak could just be removed, holes filled, and non skid applied?

I agree that these are magnificent boats under sail, and it would be hard to find a better home for the price!
You sound like you are so close to your work being done, and the sailing party about to begin again...
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Old 17-08-2010, 20:34   #40
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Zeehag,
The few grey cells I have left tend to float around in a vaccuum, so sometimes I have to go over stuff a few times to make sure I've got it...



So, what I'm trying to get clear in my mind is...

1) pre 1980 teakies were teak screwed to ply. Best fix is to remove teak, replace old rotted ply with modern rot proof material, eg impregnated marine ply, and glass over. Is this right?
as far as i have seen so far, yes

2) after 1980 the construction changed to frp sandwich using soft timber, so screw hole leaks lead to core rot. Best fix is to remove teak, cut top layer of frp and remove soggy core, replace core with modern rot proof material, and frp over? Right so far? that also seems correct as i have seen the repairs go... formerly formosa owners group, now leaky teaky yacht club, a yahoo grou, has descriptions and pictures in the archives of the group on these procedures , both types of deck


3) Do you know if any builders used frp without timber core, so teak could just be removed, holes filled, and non skid applied? they uses either the cored frp or th glass over wood techniques

I agree that these are magnificent boats under sail, and it would be hard to find a better home for the price!they are as sturdy as the refit is --as is any boat, but these are handsome special extra passion boats that look magnificent under sail....refit is not as bad as is thought.
You sound like you are so close to your work being done, and the sailing party about to begin again...
i am just now getting this boat ready to sail to a yard to fix my cutlass bearing and shaft log, and i will continue after that to sailing sea of cortez and mazatlan, maybe manzanillo, and some other stops on the way to panama and canal to caribean....might take me a bit of time to travse the canal, as i may take a longer time to get there than before the bp spew.....but i am on my way to caribean and more gulf sailing--this time in MY boat!!!!! just have to do the chainplates and check for leaks in my water tanks-is prolly original, so i sblack iron not good steel or decent stainless...chinese is inferior-once this is remembered, these boat are no big deal. once one f orgets these small factoids, then the problems happen. the stainless isnt as good as ours is. doesnt last and does rust.oops....tanks are made originally are not up to our standards steel also--they get holes in corners and need replacement. is really easy to go thru all but the hull for refit--even tho that may be a bit extreme. i like the interiors of these boats--is as awesome as the exteriors. if there isno rot, they are great--if there is, is repairable...

there are folks doing teak wood decking without screws, but i believe they are aftermarket folks. the decks will still need to be flushed with sea water every day , but they wont leak or rot the decks. i like that idea. i wish that was done on mine and on all others...woulda been sooo cool!!

if anyone knows a company that does proper teakwood decking, could you let me know--now i am interested in this answer, also..


the repaired decks that have been done by owners have been to rip off the decking for once and for all and glass the decks and nonskid with paint ....mine are done that way--came to me in that condition...i still had leaks--i fixed most of them now.

some with the teak decking were able to repair as you described-when caught early..
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Old 17-08-2010, 21:07   #41
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Hi F.N. Firefly and welcome. Everyone here has been very helpful. I am a newbie too and bought a Catalina 22 to learn maintenance and sailing.

One thing you might look into is local yacht clubs on area lakes. I am also somewhat landlocked and just found a J24 racing club that gives free lessons in the morning and invites you to crew during their weekly races that afternoon. Seems like it should be a great learning experience. First lesson is Sunday!

Might have something like that on a lake not too far from you.

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Old 17-08-2010, 21:30   #42
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My blurb on why you should learn to sail on a dinghy:

Rebel Heart - Sailing, cruising, liveaboard blog and website - Eric's Blog - why you should learn to sail on adinghy
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Old 17-08-2010, 21:32   #43
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Hi F.N. Firefly and welcome. Everyone here has been very helpful. I am a newbie too and bought a Catalina 22 to learn maintenance and sailing.

One thing you might look into is local yacht clubs on area lakes. I am also somewhat landlocked and just found a J24 racing club that gives free lessons in the morning and invites you to crew during their weekly races that afternoon. Seems like it should be a great learning experience. First lesson is Sunday!

Might have something like that on a lake not too far from you.

Dennis
You sound like you've got a great setup going on. Catalina 22 and crewing on race boats. That's solid.
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Old 17-08-2010, 23:28   #44
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if anyone knows a company that does proper teakwood decking, could you let me know--now i am interested in this answer, also..
Thanks Zeehag. Appreciate the help.
I hope our paths cross someday. Would be good to share a few drinks on good, leak-proof decks!

The Formosa51/Force50 owners association is very good and helpful.
You'd have a very good chance of getting referals to teakwood decking companies. Some of them sail in Mx a lot and have done heaps of work on their boats.
I know they recommend taking your own teak to Mx because the stuff there is inferior, and the good stuff is really expensive, but labor is cheaper.
I find the site is easier to find stuff than on LeakyTeaky. You should join it too. www.force50.org

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Old 18-08-2010, 17:42   #45
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We watched Captain Ron again, and were wondering if the Capt. Ron-ism of "Don't worry, they'll get out of the way." is reliable advice? It's pretty self evident that the "...if we get lost, just pull in to the nearest island, and ask for directions" is probably closer to reality.

The coast guard guys called their boat a "60-foot ketch" in the movie...but we know for sure it's a 51', are we right?

Are there any "buyer beware" specifics for U.S. citizens purchasing a boat from a different country?
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