HELP for a soon to be brand new cruiser

[Southern Star]

Thanks Therapy. Frankly, if we thought we could take a decent size group out for daysails on her she wouldn't be for sale.

Brad and Jane

[jheldatksuedu]

I agree with the hard dodger/pilot house comments if you plan to do any cold weather sailing. I can't comment on the worth of the washer/dryer but I have been looking for a high speed Centrifugal spin dryer. I have no problem doing laundry in a bucket but drying is a problem. I also strongly agree with the strength of a steel boat, but a well built fiberglass or wood boat can be just as servicable. They each have good and bad points. Fiberglass certainly is much easier to care for and repair and even strengthen if need be. It is probably much easier to add too, or modify when you do decide that pilot house is needed, or the existing pilot house needs to be 6 inches further forward.

I also say start small, learn the ropes and move up in size. But I do happen to know where you can find a bargain basement priced 38 Hughes sloop well worth the money. Might even be able to get a lease/purchase agreement for an extended trial/learning curve period. I purchased it with plans to taking it across the north Atlantic and beyond. Good luck whatever is decided.

The one thing I haven't found is a 1st mate, that's what I really need, and that's the reason for my planned circumnavigation. If I'm out looking I might as well be having fun and living a life of excitement and adventure too... If anybody knows a suitable candidate please do tell, I still want to raise a family and feel what better place then onboard a world cruiser.

[philip van praag]

anne
a reply from the uk.
no doubt you have looked at some of the mono v cat on this forum and which is best.
we have a 37' cat and i would agree witih nearly every reply you have had the advice is sound.
but here are some questions for you
does your house have a bomb shelter did you buy your car based on its ability to survive a crash!
this will be your home you will not spend every day sailing in storms, fact most days will be spent on the hook or in port so for us we want space comfort ease of getting on and of. heating, washing machine, storage and what's all this stuff about getting wet and water in the boat no thanks.
there has been lots said about starting small. as a retired couple perhaps for the first time in your life it will be the first time you will be together 24/7 and some space is a must as you dont always want to do the same thing.
buying small may put you of not make you want a biger boat.
biger the boat the less motion i get sick (use the patches 3 days cover) the worst thing for me is bobing like a cork on the hook.
back to safty
cats may turn over but they dont sink as there is not 2 tonne of lead puling them down we have excape hatches on the underside and tie on points the the only thing that would make us leave the boat would be fire dont forget cat sailors carry a spair hull. most extreem sailing records are set by cats.
and most sailors die when doing somthing stupid, coming back to the boat in the tender drunk and missing a step when climbing abord (no life jacket).
dont ignor safty but dont forget its your home
from your posts i think its the ability to go places not the sailing thats atracting you to the adventure (like us) or you would be weekend crusers.
i like the sailing and want the best from the boat but its the destination for me.
decide who you are and what you want from the boat then find the boat that fits.

[jheldatksuedu]

I tend to agree with the space issues addressed with Philip, my comment about start small has to be tempered with it coming from a solo sailer, mostly not needing to get away from somebody and needing space. I did spend three months with a gal on board when I brought my 30 ft boat from the great lakes to Mobile by the river system. To my knowledge it was not a problem, but I'm sure it's different on a river with things to constantly watch than being on the open sea. I've moved up in size because I've decided I need more stuff to spend years on a boat, I wanted one to have a better chance to survive ocean crossings and to circumnavigate. The one I have now has been around once before, it knows the way and has proved it can handle it. I also have included room for a family of four or so that I've yet to find but plan on.

Basically the idea to start small is intended to let you find out who you are and what you need without breaking the bank.

[HAwkcharter]

Anne,

The real disadvantage (not to start a cat fight) to a catamaran, is availibility of a slip WIDTH to fit the cat. If you don't mind anchoring out a lot, then it is no problem. If you are calling ahead for a slip, you will need to remind the Harbour master or marina of the need for a wider slip, always.
The truth is, everyboat has it's advantages and disadvantages. The forum has provided various opinions from a variety of forum members, each of us with our own preferences.

Basically, the best way to come to decisions for your personal "real needs", is to get out of the rocking chairs and onto the water.

Perhaps, it has been said earlier in this thread, but as a "newbie" it doesn't matter what boat you consider buying. Hire a professional who works in your best interests to inspect as pre-purchase, the boat you fall in love with, as a condition before final purchase. They are called "Surveyors", (I am not one).
Look in the yellow pages or get someone by references OTHER THAN THE PERSON SELLING THE BOAT.
You might ask the insurance company for a reference, since it is also likely the insurer will require a survey before they will place a policy. So be certain the insurance company will accept the surveyor prior to choosing someone. Your money goes further and the surveyor is then likely well qualified.

HAwk

[Seeratlas]

Greetings S/V Steelin Time,

great job on the boat, I acquired mine, also a steel boat, in much the same fashion, tho for slightly more money as the plating repairs had already been made by 3 sets of previous owners, who'd all gotten divorced in the process sigh. "The Pearl" was looking for a bachelor LOL.. Also, I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the utility of a steel boat. Any port in the world will have steel available, and with your genset and welder, hard to imagine any repair you couldn't do. Contrast that with fibreglass or wood/epoxy...and the relative strengths of the materials, well...all are fine until you hit something, or something hits YOU...then steel..WINS.

In any event, I suspect you'll have little problem finding interested 'crew' with a boat like yours: a great look, good quality, plenty of room, strong as... well STEEL AND..especially when you get the washer/drier in hehehe. Regarding that subject, a very useful item to have is one of the old clothes wringers that squeeze the water out of the wash. You can buy them from farm supply stores, or make your own now that you are a proficient welder. Mount it in the head assuming you have an overhead hatch and ladder coming down into it for shedding wet clothing etc. It will cut your drying time down by a third. and you're right, washing is easy, its the drying at sea that is a problem. I'm installing the latest model Splendide from Italy which is a 110 unit as they've upped the spin speed considerably, again cutting down on drying time and energy used. First Mates (potential 'Admirals' LOVE those things so if nothing else consider the investment good 'bait'.

Funny, but I'm also installing an 8k genset which is at present sitting in the cockpit waiting for me to get back and weld in the mounts in the engine room If you havn't bought yours yet, I might be able to turn you onto a helluva deal if you're looking for 'new'. 3 phase 110/120. My previous boat was a center cockpit which I think you will LOVE for warm climates, the new one is a PH flush deck model for pure function. I put a hard dodger on CC with soft enclosure with bug netting and isinglass (sp?) for the southern and northern climes respectively. When you don't need em, you don't need em, when you DO,,, well then SWEEET!!!! trust me on this one, 14 years up and down the pac northwest coast

One other thing, when you get ready to add items to the deck, don't drill, weld. You can weld stainless acorn nuts flush (fill the threads with clay first) then bolt whatever you want right into the deck without opening up the opportunity for another leak.

Lastly, you've certainly thrown on some paint. She has a wonderfully fair finish, I suspect you'll find the maintenance much less than you anticipate given the quality of current epoxies etc. Don't skimp on the zincs and make them weld on tabs..(stainless again) Steel lives or dies by the zincs.

One thing I am curious about is how the dutch insulated the steel hull inside. I'm in the process of opening up the interior of mine so I can thermo paint, and then two part fire retardant foam over that. Fortunately my builder (Kanter in Canada) left me the access to do so. A bit time consuming, but can't beat it in the long run. Exposed interior Steel will drip like a faucet in the frigid north from condensation.

Two more things then I'll quit You can get something called "The Right Stuff" at auto parts stores, i.e. rust converter. Handy to treat abraded areas until you can get around to refinish them. It's also really useful when you're dealing with rust in an area you can't quite get to any other way, the liquid will 'flow' into the area and stop the corrosion. Even makes a decent primer once dry.

The other thing is "SNowbol" or equivalent, toilet cleaner containing around 14 to 20 percent hydrochoric acid. Don't go nuts with this stuff, but it is an amazing cleaner and if you need too, you can soak rusted fittings in it and it will take them down to bright metal. Keep some baking soda on hand for neutralizing when you're done. Costs about 1.00 or 1.50 at the Dollar type stores...get a bunch of it Cleans epoxy and top coats like crazy (just rinse well) HOWEVER...don't let it run down un neutralized onto your bottom coats... forewarned LOL. Arm & Hammer is your FRIEND

Now ANNE, as for the 'start small' philosophy..well, in my mind you have to determine first whether you're really going to like sailing or not. Best to do that on someone else's boats Make some friends around the marinas- they're always looking to take someone out to show off, need some extra crew, or even just genuinely like you and enjoy your company Get on a bunch of different types of boats and have some fun, see if you like it. If you do, go straight to the boat you want..life is too short at sixty-ish to be trading around in boats.

seer

Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu

I tend to agree with the space issues addressed with Philip, my comment about start small has to be tempered with it coming from a solo sailer, mostly not needing to get away from somebody and needing space. I did spend three months with a gal on board when I brought my 30 ft boat from the great lakes to Mobile by the river system. To my knowledge it was not a problem, but I'm sure it's different on a river with things to constantly watch than being on the open sea. I've moved up in size because I've decided I need more stuff to spend years on a boat, I wanted one to have a better chance to survive ocean crossings and to circumnavigate. The one I have now has been around once before, it knows the way and has proved it can handle it. I also have included room for a family of four or so that I've yet to find but plan on.

Basically the idea to start small is intended to let you find out who you are and what you need without breaking the bank.

[Southern Star]

Just a few observations: STEEL CONSTRUCTION -

Not only is it much safer/stronger in the event of a collision/grounding, it is actually much easier to repair than frp. Try to get hull damge repaired to a cored-hull with molded liner in the developed world, let alone most preferred cruising destinations. You can always find someone with oxy-acetylene torches and steel plate/rod, even in the third world.

The interior bulkheads/joinerwork are not structural and can be easily modified should you wish to change some interior details.

There is no hull-deck joint to leak/twist, nor is there a need to caulk chainplates.

Deck hardware can be installed/relocated without worry about the core material underneath, frequently without backing plates.

No deck delamination, no osmotic blisters.

The negatives are weight (steel really isn't recommended for anything below 30 feet LOA) and corrosion. It is absolutely essential that the boat be designed and constructed using strategies/equipment to minimize the same - and with current coatings, construction techniques and items such as isolation transformers the steel boat has become much less problematic in that regard (certainly less difficult than repairing osmotic blisters/deck delamination).

PILOT HOUSES/ SOLID DODGERS

Not just useful in cold climates. Try taking an offshore passage in bad conditions, being forced to spend watches in a windy, wet and yes, dangerous open cockpit with occasional boarding seas. Compare that with the remaining in a dry, warm and yes, safe steering station where your radio, chartplotter and paper charts are at hand. The advantages are not merely related to comfort, but to remaining alert and being both physically and mentally able to cope with situations as they arise.

CATAMARANS

I have recently done a 180 degree turn and have moved from a steel boat with pilothouse to a catamaran. Would I feel as safe crossing oceans with it as in my Cartwright? No, although the Cat was sailed across the Atlantic on her own keels and will be taken on an offshore passage from NYC to Antigua and then island hopping to South America.

Yes, as reported most catamarans are unsinkable - but not all and not in all circumstances. A Prout quest reportedly sunk 250 miles east of St. Lucia just two weeks ago. Others with watertight bulkheads etc. can still sink if the bulkheads are damaged and/or the stores in the boat increase its displacement to a point that exceeds it designed bouyancy.

Yes, the beam does make finding a dock a little more challenging - although much less so now in the Caribbean where most new facilities are designed to accomodate the huge increase in multihulls. On the other hand, docking maneuvers are so much easier with twin engines. Further, cats are much nicer at anchor, with much less of a tendancy to roll or sail.

Cats are typically faster, roomier on deck and below and much easier to move about on underway due to the lack of appreciable heeling (to which you can add, much easier for meal preparation, maintenance etc., etc.).

Every boat is a compromise - there is no design/construction method that works best in all conditions and for all users. It strikes me that newcomers should be encouraged to start small(er), and with a boat that can likely be resold easily. In time (and with experience) they will be able to determine their own set of priorities and move towards the boat of their dreams. But the odds of finding their ultimate boat based upon the experiences, wants and prejudices of others is extremely unlikely.

Brad & Jane

[spencer53]

I briefly looked at previous posts so I'm likely to rehash things. At least this way you get my opinion before I overthink this one. First off- good for you! I can't imagine not living aboard and cruising. As far as boat size, many different things to consider there. Ease of handling with a small crew is first in my book. Larger the boat, larger the forces to be dealt with. Greater costs aside. My wife and I have a 53 ft and we are able to handle it. No roller furling. I will say I am one tired puppy after hoisting all the sail! Roller furling is on my list of things to do. Main furling is something that I shy away from. Sleeping arrangements. Consider the layout in terms of being underway. There are many beautiful boats with island beds. Will that make lee cloths a requirement anytime underway just to keep from rolling out onto the floor? Consider it. Larger boats also need to be looked at in terms of handholds down below. Large open spaces need to be negotiable underway. Something to hold onto within constant reach regardless of where you are down below is in my opinion a must for safety. Make sure you compare beam (width) as well as length. I've been on many 40 - 48 ft boats that had way more room in them than ours for the fact that we are only 13.5 ft beam. Narrow 53 footer. Take a look at yachtworld.com and look through as many boats as you can. Don't buy the first one you see. Have your potential buy surveyed before closing the deal. Consider that you will need to put in more money to go world cruising. I suppose there are some boats out there that are ready to do it "turn-key", but most are not. Ask plenty of questions here. This forum is a gold mine. Good luck and good sailing!

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Anne,
Happy New Year!! You certainly are getting a whole bunch of advice. Most of it is good.
I saw that you sent out the name Cabo Rico 38 but didn't get too many replies. I think if you started a new thread under monohull title Cabo Rico 38 you'd get more replies. Sticking to the "Meets and Greets" thread, although fun, is not the best place to get specific answers to questions.
You might already know that but thought I'd just mention it.
By reputation, I've not heard anything bad about the Cabo Rico but have never owned or sailed one.
You've seen lots of owners talking about very large boats and thier handling of them. I've sailed and crewed large boats and from my experience 36LOD is the max I would purchase. The last time I was aboard a larger boat was a Fuji 46 and my question (to myself) was what in the world would I do with all this room and each winch costs $4K to replace? But, again, that's just an opinion that I've formed from my own experiences. Your opinion and those of others on this forum are formed from their personal experiences.
You'll find that special boat!!
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[annegibsonwaco]

jheldatksuedu - Congratulations on the purchase and repair of your boat! What a steal or what a steel! lol You had the foresight and courage to do what we have considered but knew we didn't have the knowledge or experience to make a wise purchase. Looking at your beautiful boat really enhances our interest in steel boats. The problem that we have found, and the same is true with catamarans, is that our market here in Texas does not have any for sale, that we have been able to find. The only steel boat is the Custom Finot at Kemah that is out of the question because in our estimation it is not suitable for a couple for liveaboard cruising. I would feel like I was in a coffin - the headroom is 5'10'' max and no windows to allow in the sunlight.

After all the discussion here, the pilothouse/hard dodger is now on our list of necessities. At our age, comfort and ability to move about in a dry area is not just a luxury, it's a safety issue. what do you'll think about this dodger/enclosure on the Cabo Rico I'm interested in?
Which brings me to the next issue being discussed, catamarans. I am really intrigued by what I hear about their comfortableness (is that a word?) for us oldtimers. I have not seen any at the marinas, but I'm going to look again next time we go. I'm really curious about the incidence of seasickness on them. I've heard differing opinions. And, the reduced impact on the knees, two areas of concern for my husband and me.
I am really appreciating the wealth of information from all of you. I'm starting a notebook with the different topics you have discussed and will carry it with me when looking at boats.

Anne

[annegibsonwaco]

SkprJohn - I'll try your idea and post under monohulls regarding the Cabo Rico. Thanks for the advice.

Anne

[jheldatksuedu]

Anne
I don't have any experience with large catamarans. I've had a couple small ones and one trimaran and was impressed with the speed. I always thought I would get a large trimaran. The small cats had no place to be, just a trampoline, no cockpit, but a trimaran had a central hull with a rather standard cockpit. I don't think this applies much to large cats.

As for the dodger/enclosure on the Cabo Rico it would be great in port and on calm or rather protected waters but on the ocean if one wave came crashing into the cockpit much of that would no longer exist. My opinion.

[Jim Thomsen]

Anne,

My wife and I were also novices and we bought a boat last year in Europe and moved on and started learning. We are now sailing in the Med and love our lifestyle! Enjoy!

As you see from the responses, everyone has different ideas about cruising boats. Someone I really respect, John Neal (Mahina Expeditions conducts sailing and navigation training and expeditions in the South Pacific and offers offshore sailing seminars), who takes people on multi week blue water training cruises also works as a boat consultant. He has helped a lot of people find the right cruising boat for them and I think his total fee is about $300. Look at his site.

Jim

[annegibsonwaco]

Jim - I had heart about Mahina Expeditions but I had not known of anyone who personally used them to find a boat. The price seems reasonable. I'll shoot him an e-mail and see what he has to offer. Would love to attend one of their seminars this spring, but there are none scheduled past March. I'll let you know what I find out.

We haven't been down to Kemah in a few weeks because of the weather. It's supposed to be in the 60's this weekend, so we're heading out this afternoon. On the list is a 44' CSY & Norseman 447, 43' Hans Christian MKII, 42' Nassau/Tatoosh, and 41' Tartan. It ought to be interesting.

Anne

[Jim Thomsen]

Anne,
Great boats....have fun!
We did attend a Mahina seminar in Seattle and it was excellent. This year they will be back on Mahina, going west from the Azores in April, so that's why there are no other seminars. Another good seminar person, if she will be at a boat show near you, is Pat Walls. A very experienced sailor who does does presentations for women going cruising.
We also went on one of the Mahina expeditions, from Sweden 1400 miles north to Tromso, Norway. If you look at their website we were on leg 1 of 2007.
Jim