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Old 27-07-2010, 23:31   #61
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Get some experience on different types of before you buy.
Join a boating club of some sort etc.
There are many decisions to be made in regard to "what boat"
Liveaboard -good headroom, and will marinas alow you to liveaboard in your area.
Comfort and seaworthiness- size matters, the longer the better.
Where do you want to cruise? tropical area are more suited to a multihull, because of the shallow draft.

Its much more than just Power or Sail, some sailing boats motor well, (multihulls) some don't. A heavy wide Keel boat will be flat out at 4-5 knots.
Steel is the best for keel boats, I believe Aluminium for multihulls.
Fiberglass is OK, don't go near Ferro.

It s is a generalisation but motor boats are usually going somewhere, Sailing boats are for the fun of Sailing
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Old 28-07-2010, 01:16   #62
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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Totally agree



Really?
How many yachts cross oceans...Not many, most coastal hop and Island hop, legs are usually no more than several hundred miles to a thousand at a time.

Get an economic powerboat and the issue is a non issue



I have read many articles and spoken to delivery skippers of large powered vessels say that sea state usually dictates the speed.
The fast boats get throttled back to approx. 8-10 knots, so best to have a boat that does that speed very efficiently.
Smaller engines, lower cost, much less fuel used, much less tankage needed.



Arguably



Bullshit
It depends on the vessel
Plenty of rotten/ rusty death-trap keelboats that weigh more than my powercat




Sure it is, I put plenty of analysis into making my decision to go power over sail this time, believe me, I prefer sail, but the numbers did not stack up at all.

Thats exactly why I went power over sail
Pointless having an expensive bag of rag and a mast + deck hardware if you plan on cruising areas that predominately have either heavy wind (so in port or behind an island) or very light to zero wind (so motoring anyway)
Couple of comments:

1. A good percentage of the sailboats of CF-ers do cross oceans and an even bigger percentage make long passages. If you dilute the sample with coastal boats or day sailers, then you distort the picture. CF is oriented to blue-water cruising .

2. Ton for ton the average monohull sailboat is more seaworthy than the average monohull power boat; this is simply a fact which no one can deny. You can't compare a "rust bucket deathtrap" sailboat to a new power boat, much less an atypically seaworthy power cat; that's a distortion.

Your power cat is not representative of power boats. What you have is a very unusual and a really excellent solution -- a Dashew-like approach to cruising. Vastly more seaworthy than a typical trawler or gin palace and at the same time much more efficient. Totally unrepresentative of average power boats of your tonnage. Your power cat or Dashew's Wind Horse are the two power boats I could really see myself in (especially when I get too old to crank a winch).

On that subject -- sailing catamarans are not to my taste, personally, but I agree with whoever said that sailing cats make better power boats than monohulls. That is, that they are a better compromise between sailing and powering. That is more than anything because they don't have monohulls' keels which create stability but add 40% or more of mass you have to power around. So that, redundant propulsion, and maneuvering all add up to sailing cats being great power boats at the same time. I agree and appreciate this quality.

Monohull cruising boats are not necessarily bad power boats. Their function as power boats is compromised by the lead keel, all that mass, and all the weight and windage aloft. But as discussed they are extremely seaworthy, and they motor pretty efficiently, if somewhat slower than real power boats or sailing cats.

Of course sailboats are dual purpose -- sail and power. The term "auxilary power" doesn't really apply in this day and age; most sailboats power as much as they sail these days. It would be more accurate to call all our boats motor sailers, probably.

How much you get to sail depends on what kind of wind you have and how well your boat sails. Our old boat was a long-keeled tub (everyone thinks this type of boat is "seakindly" and immensely seaworthy, but frankly, it was a tub) and we could not make useful VMG to windward. So we motored 70% of the time, probably. Our new boat is much faster and sails much closer to the wind. Over the entirety of last fall and winter, out of 40 days on the water, we only had one passage under power. We sailed everywhere and all the time, even tacking upwind to destinations 40 miles away. This summer has been hot and calm, and we have racked up more passages under power due to lack of wind, but I guess our overall total of miles must be 70% or 80% sailing. Need to get out the log and calculate that.

But our boat is not too bad as a powerboat, either. She has a range of about 800 miles under power; her engine is extremely smooth and quiet so it is not unpleasant to travel under power, and she can make a reliable 8.5 knots under power without stress. A trawler of similar tonnage would be much less seaworthy (no amount of stabilizers or flopper-stoppers can match the effect of an 8 ton lead keel 2.5 meters under the water), might cruise a couple knots faster, and would use more fuel.


So you pays more money and makes your choice. You, Catmando, are a unique case in my experience of a person who actually chose between sail and power, and analyzed that choice objectively, rather than knowing instinctively what he wanted. Certainly I never did such an analysis myself; it was sail or nothing for me. My hat's off to you.
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Old 28-07-2010, 01:21   #63
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Originally Posted by fishwife View Post
I read somewhere, it may have been on here, that sail boats spend better than 60% of the time using their 'iron sail'. That didn't square with how I sailed but there again I was always broke in those days. So sailing people, how often do you have the motor running? I've certainly noticed a lot of people who use their engine rather than beat to wind.

P.
It all depends on how well your boat sails (a) in light wind; and (b) to weather, and (c) where you sail; and (d) in what season; and (e) whether or not you're often in a hurry to get somewhere.

Over last fall and winter out of 40 days on the water in our new boat, we only made one passage under motor. That's 97.5% sailing, I think. But in contrast to that, our old boat sailed poorly, could not go to weather, and would not move in light winds, so we motored almost all the time, sailing only on the rare occasion when the wind was perfect. That was at least 70% motoring, probably more.

Everyone will have a different answer to your question.
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Old 28-07-2010, 10:00   #64
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motor boats are usually going somewhere, Sailing boats are for the fun of Sailing
i think you might get some argument here on that one
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Old 28-07-2010, 10:35   #65
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Sail vs Power

My preference is sail and that is what we always had having owned and thoroughly enjoyed several models of sailboats ranging in length from 26' to 45', from motorsailers to non motorized day sailers. While they are much more economical to operate, my own experience is that sailboats are somewhat more expensive to maintain what with sails, standing and running rigging, haul outs, etc. So our first love is sailing. However, life dealt us a blow later in life just when we were starting to prepare for retirement and cruising. Due to a medical condition, my wife was no longer able to handle the physical aspects of sailing. So we crossed over to the dark side and switched to power. Hey, it's on the water and when you really need to get somewhere in a hurry power is a good, albeit expensive, way to go from point A to point B. If you are just starting out, I recommend you start with chartering one or two of each, or crewing on one or two of each to get a feel of what your desires might be. Right after purchase is no time for buyer's remorse brought on by a dislike of the type of boat you picked. Give it some time and pick the one that is right for you. Check out fractional ownership, sailing clubs, powerboat/trawler/sailboat charters and get a feel for what you and your first mate want to spend your time on. Good luck.
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Old 29-07-2010, 16:27   #66
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So we crossed over to the dark side and switched to power. Hey, it's on the water and when you really need to get somewhere in a hurry power is a good, albeit expensive, way to go from point A to point B.
I note that your choice of vessel (avatar) appears not to be the most "fuel friendly" model around.
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Old 29-07-2010, 17:01   #67
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I have refered to this many times here. Now I'm going to try and at least paraphrase what I found very helpful.

Firtst of all, pick up a copy of "The Liveaboard Report". Google it .It was written by a statustician/boater. He simply interviewed livaboards and entered data.

One of the qquestions he asked was MONTHLY EXPENSES. He was getting responses in the + - $1,200 range. One of the few power boats he interviewed said $13,000. The interviewer assumed he was quoting a yearly amount. He divided $13,000 by 12 month and came up with $1083 per month. Then he said something like, "so your monthly figure is about average with the sailboats". The owner then said someting like, "No, you asked monthly expenses, I reported montly expenses".

The interviewer dropped powerboats from the list as I recall.
I'm not picking a fight here, I just don't get it. If someone is living aboard (not cruising) on a 32 foot cat, monohull or power boat I don't see how the expenses can be that different. My slip for a motor yacht costs the same as a sailboat of similar length, my living expenses are the same as any other 'live aboard' person. OK I need a wider slip but my boat is not much bigger on the beam than many comparable sized sail boats. In fact a cat takes up more room and may cost more. There is little maintenance to do when I'm not out stressing the boat. Size for size, I know that the electricity needs of most sail boats and power boats are around the same when hooked up to shore power. So I must be missing something here because I just don't get your point.

P.
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:22   #68
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Originally Posted by Highlander40 View Post
When a sailboat is under power (better than 50% for most)
all you have is a really bad powerboat.
I'm not sure I agree with that. When is the last time you saw a sailboat that needed stabilizers? Even if there's no wind, I put up my main, sheet it in flat, and it keeps me from rolling. In that configuration, I can motor all day at 8 knots and still get .75 GPH. Give me a bit of breeze and I can motorsail at 8.5 knots while reducing the rpms enough to get .5 GPH.

Without a puff of wind, I can easily squeeze 500 nm out of a 100 gallon tank, with fuel to spare. How many powerboats can do that?

Head me directly into some really nasty chop, and I'll probably be able to motor faster and more comfortably than most powerboats of similar length. Best of all, I never feel the need for a second engine because I can still get home without the engine, even if I have to travel thousands of miles to do so.
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:39   #69
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Wow what motor and kind of boat do you have? Am I getting this right more than 9 miles per gallon at 8k?
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:46   #70
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I'm not sure I agree with that. When is the last time you saw a sailboat that needed stabilizers?
My powerboat wont need stabilisers

Quote:
Even if there's no wind, I put up my main, sheet it in flat, and it keeps me from rolling. In that configuration, I can motor all day at 8 knots and still get .75 GPH. Give me a bit of breeze and I can motorsail at 8.5 knots while reducing the rpms enough to get .5 GPH.
How much did that rig, sails winches etc cost again?
And if you had to replace them brand new today?

Quote:
Without a puff of wind, I can easily squeeze 500 nm out of a 100 gallon tank, with fuel to spare. How many powerboats can do that?
Quite a few, especially the ones with similar hull style, engine size and speed restraints AND they don't lose speed by dragging a rig through the air.

Quote:
Head me directly into some really nasty chop, and I'll probably be able to motor faster and more comfortably than most powerboats of similar length.
Planning powerboats perhaps
Displacement powerboats I'm not so sure
Quote:
Best of all, I never feel the need for a second engine because I can still get home without the engine, even if I have to travel thousands of miles to do so.
Cats have 2 engines anyway
Powercats have 2 engines PLUS the additional money saved on rig

Monohulled trawlers like in the link in my sig, usually only have one engine as well. That particular example gets around 350nm on 100 gallons, so not much different to your vessel
Quote:
(snipped from their log)After cruising the boat for twelve months we are consistently getting 7 - 8 litres per hour at 7 knots (1100 RPM)
and thats a 49ft trawler powered by a Gardner 6LX, coupled with a 38inch propellor
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:48   #71
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Bash,
I totally agree about the importance of showing up.

On the other hand Many times we pass sailors wrapped up in foul weather gear or suffering in the hot sun, hobby horsing along.
Meanwhile I am sitting in a Stidd chair wearing a T shirt, rain or shine.

By lunch time we are done for the day with 100 or 150 miles easily under the keel. Swimming, kayaking, beach combing or just walking at a new destination. To me that is a big part of cruising.

Sailing is fun but after 12 hours or more it gets old. That is until that becomes your life and I just don't think that will be me.

The strange thing is that I see sailboats powering with sails down in fine sailing conditions. The capacity for human suffering is limitless.

Have fun, we are off to Maine tomorrow.
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:51   #72
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Miles per gallon doesn't really work for boats. Gallons per hour is a more reliable way to figure things. Keep in mind that the boat's top speed is around 9 kts under motor and 9.5 kts under sail, so when I'm in the 8 kt range I'm not going full out. That extra knot could easily double my consumption rate.

Admittedly, getting 8 kts at a rate of .75 GPH is going to require flat seas and a squeeky clean bottom. Throw in some chop, or a headwind, or a barnacle on the prop and I'll could be down to 7 kts easily at that burn rate.
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Old 29-07-2010, 18:57   #73
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I'm not picking a fight here, I just don't get it. If someone is living aboard (not cruising) on a 32 foot cat, monohull or power boat I don't see how the expenses can be that different. My slip for a motor yacht costs the same as a sailboat of similar length, my living expenses are the same as any other 'live aboard' person. OK I need a wider slip but my boat is not much bigger on the beam than many comparable sized sail boats. In fact a cat takes up more room and may cost more. There is little maintenance to do when I'm not out stressing the boat. Size for size, I know that the electricity needs of most sail boats and power boats are around the same when hooked up to shore power. So I must be missing something here because I just don't get your point.

P.
Not to worry. I think you maks some good points. Since I don't have the book in front of me (my copy is on the other side of the world) I am only shooting from the hip. But sufficeth to say, it's a book of statistics with some comment regarding his findings. The remarks were not offered as any kind of proof of anything. I was inpressed that he kept it in the context of being a professional statistician.

Now I can hear the swords unsheathing, because as we all know statistics are like......

If you can get you hands on a copy, it's NOT all about sail vs power. It covers engines, stoves, marinas....anything he could think to ask. It's about what people have tried and stayed with, moved on from, whatever. Like I said, I found it to be a good reference long after I bought my boat. In fact, I bought the boat first.
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Old 29-07-2010, 19:02   #74
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How much did that rig, sails winches etc cost again?
And if you had to replace them brand new today?
You have a point there. I could purchase a fairly nice powerboat with what the rig, sails and winches cost.

My guess is that it's about 1/3 of the original cost of the boat. Of course I've added two additional sails since then. And a couple more winches.
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Old 29-07-2010, 19:09   #75
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The strange thing is that I see sailboats powering with sails down in fine sailing conditions. The capacity for human suffering is limitless.
I couldn't agree more. A few months ago I was sitting on a beach on an island in Baja counting the number of sailboats motoring by on what would have been a beam reach in 15 knots of wind. Unbelievable!

On the other hand, when I'm huddled in my foulies behind the dodger I'm connecting with nature in a way you'll never experience motoring indoors, so to speak. Out there in the cockpit I'm part of it, not separated from it. That's actually one of the things I love about sailing. Sure it gets old after a few days, even with modern foulies. But those times are a big part of what makes the journey memorable.
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