Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-09-2005, 10:14   #1
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
Hello Everybody

Hello.

And greetings to everybody on, "Cruisers Forum." My name is Kevin. And I am new here. I just wanted to say hello. And I will be on this site often. Listening, and learning everything about sailing. I am ex-US Navy. 9 year veteran. Desert Shield/Desert Storm Veteran.
I do not own a boat. But, hopefully. If everything goes according to plan. Me and my old friend Jesse, are going to build our own boat. Looking at a 65 footer. And later on, after I have everything in place. And everybody trained. (including myself!) Will go into semi-retirement. And just sail away.
We are looking into building a ferro-cement boat. I have been studying, and reading upon the subject for over a year now. I have a half a dozen books on the subject. Including a few on Bruce Roberts books of designs. I will not stop there. I am building up my personal library. Including a library of books, and pamphlets on hardware related equipment that belongs on sailboats, in general.
Eveybody is welcome to write to me. Like I said. I will be here regularly. And anybody who owns a ferro-cement boat is especially welcomed to write me up, anytime. I could as much knowledge about ferros. The better!
I look forward to any comments. And thank you all, for your time. And may you all, have a nice day/evening.

Sincerely,

Kevin
__________________

__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2005, 03:34   #2
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
I built one a few years ago....

I built a 32' Harley some years ago.
If you have any questions just ask.
__________________

__________________
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2005, 13:13   #3
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
Thank You For Your Reply !

Dear Chris 31415,

I'd appriciate any suggestions, you may have. Since you did mention building a Hartley.
Speaking about Hartley's. Those people who sells Hartley building plans. And Samson's. Are Hartley Brookes, out of New Zealand. And since you've built a Hartley. That's in the same sporting arena in which I am aiming at.

I look forward in asking you any questions in the very near future. Right now, it's still the weekend. And I'm just finishing a long over due errend. Due to my birthday being just a couple of weeks ago. And I had a constant flood of guests, flooding in right after the other. Etc. Etc. .

Take care. And thank you for your reply.

Regards,

Kevin
__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2005, 23:41   #4
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
65' is very large...

A 65' boat is a very large boat. Many would feel that it is way too large for 2 people to handle.
You would be looking at more than 10,000 man hours to build. At 800 amateur builder hours per year it would take a very long time.
Have you considered a smaller boat?
__________________
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2005, 22:44   #5
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
There Will Be Others Helping Out !

Dear Chris31415,

I plan to hire professional labours, (I think I spelled that right) and they will do the hull. You know, experienced concrete workers.
Me and my friend will do the rest. With additional helpers when needed. I do not who yet at this time. But, right now it's me and Jesse.
But, I plan to preach to some people, who might be interested in helping. Or try to recruit. I am slowing working on some ideas. But, right now. It stands like I just mentioned above.
That's how I am going to over come the extreme amount of labor involved, dealing with the laying of concrete. And, I know that the concrete has to be laid usually and generally on the same day. Unless, kept some what moist where you stopped working on it last. But, I plan to have a crew do it all in (2) 8 hour shifts. And the foreman in charge of those crews will be advised ahead of laying of the concrete. How it should be done etc. etc. .
So I have thought ahead on those things, Chris. But, thanks for bringing that detail out. Yes, alot of man hours.

Regards,

Kevin
__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 05:09   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,583
Images: 240
Kevin plans “... to hire professional labourers, (I think I spelled that right) and they will do the hull. You know, experienced concrete workers ...”

Perhaps plasterers might be better prepared for this job (if hand trowel appluied), or concrete pool or tunnel finishers (if spayed/pumped like "Jet-Crete, Shotcrete, etc) ?

And then what Talbot & JeffH have to say (follows) ...
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 05:17   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Any boat over 40 ft and prices for everything seems to increase at an exponential rate. It is not just the cost for the build, but standing and running rigging, sails, anchors, chain, antifouling, and then once you have completed her, the sheer size will complicate berthing, and running costs will also be at the same inflated level.

2 people can manage a boat of that size assuming she is set up for it correctly but you will find that the size will limit the sailing areas.

Strongly suggest that you re-visit your projected cost structures, and your intended cruising area for suitability of this plan.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 06:02   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
Jeff H's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Boat: Farr 11.6 (AKA Farr 38) Synergy
Posts: 543
Images: 13
First of all, with all due respect, the nature of your description of what you are proposing to build shows that you really do not have enough sailing experience and small boat experience to make rewasonable decisions. Specifically, a 65 footer is a huge boat for an inexperienced sailor to handle in the wide range of conditions that one could be expected to encounter out on the water or in docking.

Ferrocement appears to be a magical material but in the big picture, the cost of building the mold, and finishing the hull so that it is it is fair, the difficulty making hull to deck and bulkhead to hull connections will more than offset the material savings from the portland cement and reinforcing steel.

Your use of the term 'concrete worker' suggests that you really do not understand the process of laying up a ferrocement hull. Layup takes highly skilled stucco mechanics (although some skilled swimming pool crews are also able to provide reasonable quality.) The less skilled the stucco workers. Anything less results in a boat of dubious strength and finish. The project that I was involved with was a comparatively small boat but it required a crew of 4 continuously round the clock(from one third aft of the stem to the stern) for not quite two days. Each crew could work for roughly 2 to 4 hours continuously which meant a crew of over 20 people. A 65 footer is so large that you are talking about a crew ofe perhaps twice that amount.

The hull and deck of a boat is roughly 25 to 30 percent of the cost of the overall boat. Whatever small savings in the hull costs that can be achieved by using ferrocement, will be more than offset by the greater expense of trying to attach hardware to ferrocement and the issues of resale.

I would also suggest that you consider a better quality designer than Bruce Roberts. Roberts is good at self-promotion but his designs tend to be quite mediocre and dated, of dubious engineering.

I apologize that this next section is cloned from a previous reply to a question about ferro-cement:

"My take on ferro-cement is that it is in fact pound for pound the weakest of all of the commonly used boat building materials. Ferro-cement operates by the same principle as fiberglass, in other words, a high tensile strength reinforcing held by a high compressive strength, low tensile strength cement. The cement in ferro-cement ideally is a high strength Portland cement. The cement in fiberglass is polyester, vinylester or epoxy resin. The tensile reinforcing material in ferro-cement is steel (sometimes with glass fiber, and in fiberglass its glass in a variety of forms, kevlar, carbon and all kinds of new variations on these materials.

Ferro-cement's weight comes from a number of sources. First of all, no matter how small the boat, there is a practical limit to how thin ferro-cement can be. ferro-cement needs to have a minimum thickness in order to have sufficient depth of material to protect the reinforcement from moisture. Because of this boats below 40 to 45 feet are generally considered too small to use ferro-cement efficiently. (i.e. they weigh more than they would in some other material.) Even in the case of much larger boats, Ferrocement tends to be the heaviest of building materials for a given strength.

The implication of the weight issue is not readily obvious. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it stronger, or more comfortable or more stabile. Weight does increase the stress on the various parts of a boat. It increases the size of a sail plan required to achieve a particular speed. It increases drag and typically means that for a given draft a boat will have a less efficient keel (i.e trading off greater drag for the same amount of leeway.)

In order to carry more sail area the boat needs greater form stability, which comes at the price or a choppier motion and greater drag, or greater ballast or deeper ballast which adds more weight and drag and perhaps depth.

To keep the weight down, many ferro-cement cement boats have reduced ballast ratios when compared to other construction techniques. This means that they need more sail area because of their weight but they can't carry more sail area because of reduced ballast ratios without using lower aspect rigs which are by their very nature less efficient.

This is further complicated by the fact a higher proportion of the weight in a ferro-cement boat is carried in the in the topsides (and sometimes decks). This means a high center of gravity which has a variety of implications; reduced stability, wider roll angles, smaller angles of ultimate stability, and more prone to excitation rolling (which may be slightly offset by the greater inertial moments due to weight).

Then there is maintenance costs. In a study performed some years back looking at the life costs of various materials, ferro-cement-cement came out as the highest maintenance cost material (if I remember worst to best was ferro-cement, steel, conventional wood, aluminum, fiberglass, cold molded wood) Of course as with any generalized study there will be case by case exceptions and given the comparatively small sampling of non-FRP boats it can be easily skewed by a few bad apples.

Other problems with ferro-cement are the difficulty of connecting things to it, and prevention of rot in wood in contact with ferro-cement. The difficulty in bolting to ferro-cement is that ferro-cement hates localized loadings. It’s hard to glue things to ferro-cement. secondary bonds are greatly weaker than primary bonds.

Then there is the market value thing. ferro-cement does have a reputation in the States that does not match the comparatively high regard that it is held in other countries. Some of this is just plain unfair prejudice but some of this comes from real shortcomings in the materials as noted above. A well-built ferro-cement boat can be a good cruising boat. But the image of the crudely finished ‘hippie’ built cement and rust buckets still clouds the perception of ferro-cement for many North Americans.

The other problem with ferro is telling whether a several year old boat is a good boat. It is very hard to do non- destructive survey techniques to tell whether the original work was done well and is in good condition. While sounding will reveal any major separations in the cement to reinforcing bond, it does little to determine the affects of fatigue, poor curing practices or cold joints. With Ferro-cement it is particularly important to maintain the ferro-cement parts in good condtion. That can be very significant. People who buy boats because they are priced well below the market, often are overly frugal or just plain do not have the money that it takes to properly maintain a boat. Anotherwise good Ferro-cement boat left to poor maintenance and miss-handling can quickly become a poster child for why North American’s don’t trust Ferro-cement

To me the real cost of owning a boat is the difference between what you paid for the boat, the cost of upgrades and maintenance and the price that you can get when you sell the boat. The problem with a lot of low value boats is that the sales price is always limited no matter how much you put into the boat. This too works against ferro cement boats.

I guess my conclusion is if you are strictly looking for a low initial up front cost boat and don't mind putting some sweat equity in, and you can look past the sailing shortcomings, or you actually find one that was well built and well maintained, a ferro-cement boat might work out fine for you. For most of us, they do not. "

In any event, there are far stronger, lighter, lower maintenance, easier to work with, and less expensive ways to build a boat. The choice of hull material dramatically effetcs sailing ability, seaworthiness and performance. The inherrent properties of ferro cement makes it a very poor choice if any of these are a important to you. When you talk about building a 65 footer the costs are enormous no matter what matter material that you elect to use, that frankly I would suggest that start with a material that will produce high quality boat and not just one that is based on cheap hull materials and a perception of ease of construction that is not borne out by reality when you talk about a one off.

Respectfully

Jeff
__________________
Jeff H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 13:23   #9
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
Thanks Again

Dear Jeff H, Talbot, GordMay,

Thank you for your responses. Yes, I am inexperienced when it comes to sailing a boat. I know how to tie one up. And "no", experience in building a boat.
I haven't thought of pool labours. That's a good idea. The other thing is this. I already had a rough idea that the boat built up to that size would probably double. I plan not to sale this boat. So resale is the least thing on my mind. But, it would be built as professionally, as possible. And I would already have mounts and other tie points in place of the wire mesh, (mold) were the cement covers the wire mesh. The tie points is where the bulkheads, the deck, engine mounts, etc. , would be connected to.
I also know form basic practicality, that the sails would double in price. And the cost of the hull would too !
To JeffH. Yes, I am inexperienced when it comes to term the word, "concrete worker." I am inexperienced. I am not going to blow myself up to make myself larger than life. And to say that I do know how. "I don't." But, the two most important things that I can say that I have tons of experience in the areas of is this!
#1. I am ex-US Navy. I know what life is sea is like. Spend almost 10 years at sea.
#2. Leadership. I have lead men into naval combat. And other related stuff. Got alot of that. More than 8 years.
#3. Mechanic. I have over 5 years of mechanics experience in diesels.
So what I am saying is this. I'm not a boat builder. I have no sailing licence. "Yet?" But, I am quailfied in those other areas. Inwhich what makes a great sea Captain.
So you see. I do have what it takes to be out there on the water. But, when it comes to building. I'm just shooting from the hip, at this time. I'm still learning things about building boats.
About Bruce Roberts. The man makes good boat plans. But he's only one of many. I have dealt with Bruce Bingham. I even have a set of his bleprints for a 47 footer that was designed for ferro. And I have just started contacting Colin Brookes from New Zealand. The man who runs Ferroboats website.
So I am, and I admit that I am still learning a good deal here. That is also why I decided to join this forum for extra advice, and so forth. I appriciate what everyone has responded so far. And I look forward to even more advice. Thank you all.

Regards,
Kevin
__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 13:39   #10
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
Oh And Before I leave This Out!

To Who This May Concern,

To anyone asking me about the 65 footer, that I plan to build. And the above mentioning, that it's alot for (two) people to handle.
Well, I plan to have a deck hand to assist with the jobs at hand. I hope to have (four) deck hands. Two for days. And two for nights. I will be piloting at day. With two deck hands.
Nights. My excutive officer, (first mate) and two deck hands. To oversee operations for night voyage while I sleep.
So I already have thought of that. I also will have a cook. Everyone will be trained for man overboard, fire and medical emergencies. Cause out at sea. There is no Fire Department. No hospitals or doctors. And no rescue teams. We have to be trained in all those areas to treat, mend. And to save lives. And maybe others out at sea.
As for doctors. Well, that would be a miracle that no one would really ever need one. Unless, there happen to be one out sailing in a boat. And is near by.

Regards,
Kevin
__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 18:10   #11
Registered User
 
Wukong's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 79
Check out this website. I was interested in ferro until I read all damned 8900 postings. Origami seems awesome.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats
__________________
When you strike first, you don't have to get even.
Wukong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 18:16   #12
Registered User
 
Wukong's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 79
Also take a look here;

http://www.sandyscb.com/sanfun.htm
__________________
When you strike first, you don't have to get even.
Wukong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 18:32   #13
Registered User
 
CaptainK's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Phoenix, Arizona... USA
Posts: 2,386
Images: 7
Origami ! I'll Look At That ! :-)

Dear Wukong,

Thanks alot. I will look into the Origami site. And the other one you posted. I have thought of building in steel. I just might. Providing I can get a deal on scrap steel. And new plated steel.

Thanks.

Regards,

Kevin
__________________
CaptainK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 19:24   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
Kevin,

I hope you do pull this off and end up with your 65' boat. However you should know that getting six other people (especially qualified people) to go voyaging with you will be no easy matter. Perhaps a 40 footer and two persons might be easier to accomplish. In any event, the 65 footer will start feeling small with seven aboard.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2005, 20:27   #15
Kai Nui
Guest

Posts: n/a
Kevin, with such an ambitious project in mind, and the resale of ferro boats being what it is, you migh consider buying one out here in Ca, and doing some sailing on it. A 40-50 footer can be had for 15000-25000, sometimes less, and might give you some real perspective. Since you have the kind of time you do, after a year or so of trying out a boat, you can turn it for around the same money you invested, and be much more informed, but no poorer. Or you might even strip it to outfit your project. You can often purchase a ferro boat with a good rig, appliances, engine, and deck equipment for less than the value of the equipment.
__________________

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.