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Old 26-10-2014, 04:25   #676
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i think we need to put this subject to bed once and for all.

it is not illegal to carry guns on a boat,as long as you declare them to customs on arrival.

in every one of the many countries i have visited you will find on your inward customs clearance form a section that asks you if you have firearms on board,if the answer is yes it asks you to list them and the amount of ammunition.

then your fire arms will either be sealed onboard,or kept by the customs for safe keeping untill your departure.

this is the same for every country in the world,hassle, yes but illegal ,no.

Sorry. Late to this rather massive thread, Atolls view is very simplistic. What he describes is the " general " case. However specific countries have specific laws concerning types of firearms etc. So if you carry a shotgun then atolls views are generally correct. However carry anything exotic like large calibre pistols, semi-auto, assault , or generally " scary black gun" and you will likely have it seized. ( as did happen to an American boat in German waters a couple of years ago )

Furthermore, think VERY carefully about brandishing any firearm on board against anyone , while in that countries territorial waters. Many countries do NOT allow you to use firearms in that way and should the person you threaten , report you , you can get in a world of trouble. Merely being allowed to keep it, doesn't mean you can use it.

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Old 26-10-2014, 04:37   #677
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Rohan View Post
The purpose of shooting from a moving boat is not for fun, it's a necessary action because kidnappers/hijackers have already brought along their guns in a moving vehicle.




You seem to have more anger for ordinary gun owners than you do for pirates.




But they do rely on ransoms, hence the problem.

For this reason European hostages are the highest in demand, since several European governments will pay ransom demands (the USA and UK do not).

Perhaps you might like to back up that rather silly " European " remark with facts. ( could you name specifics )' funnily since most pirate interdiction. In the gulf of Aden is by EUNAVFOR, you might look that moniker , ( and look who strafed putland) or the very aggressive anti pirate actions by the French special forces

Not to mention , the last time the US forces intervened in Somalia , the whole US crew of the yacht was massacred ( see we can all throw rocks )


The UK has paid several ransoms , as had the US. What they do of course in then go onto the media to proudly proclaim they dont negotiate with terrorists. ( how'd that play out inNorthern Ireland , oh dear , the uk negotiated so much behind the scenes , the terrorists are in the government !!!) )

All governments negotiate with terrorists , only in the movies they don't.


Somalian pirates rely on insurance monies paid to retrieve cargo ships. The crew is of little concern to either side, which is why they are typically captured and not killed, they get returned FOC once the random for the ship is paid

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Old 26-10-2014, 04:51   #678
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Excellent! Well thought. AK47 I agree.

Although my experience is limited, we have been robbed a couple of times. These situations happen in a split second, no time to start planning, only time to react. You'll have the home advantage, but the bad guys will have the element of surprise working for them. Each time, my wife and I have automatically gone into attack mode... surprised the heck out of the robbers who fled each time. They're basically cowards when confronted. Caught one... now he dead ("he" overdosed on heroin 3 days after he got out of prison). Happy ending to the story.

I'd like to counter this argument , I will not go into specifics, but , you will , if you put yourself ( or find yourself) in harms way, find many assailents, who will just as likely attack you , ( out of their perceived need to defend themselves ), just as some will turn and run. It's a very dangerous assumption to base an attack ( or defense strategy ) of the assumption the other side will just run away.

Any perusal of news stories, will show plenty of cases of people killed or wounded because they decided to " have a go " ( sir peter Blake comes to mind ), also you omit to include assailants that panic and overreact when challenged.

In many places, perhaps unlike the US, the people attacking you are " desperate" , they live in a society where brutality and violence are common place and they tend to react to such aggression with more aggression of their own ( it's how they survived ) hence the " have a go " response needs to be very very carefully evaluated. The last thing you should do is simply react with aggression, remember there only one of you , there are many potential assailants .

Perhaps in the US , all perps are cowards. But it's not through elsewhere. ( for example have you ever come up against people " with a cause " , they are not likely to back down )

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Old 26-10-2014, 04:57   #679
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Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

It is very obvious who has travelled far and seen lots of places and who don't. Many who did not, project the thought of a sailboat with a gun toting owner in their home waters where gun ownership is severly restricted. And they post against that idea without even saying about which area they speak!

I am Dutch, sailed for 30 years in & around Dutch waters and never carried a gun. I did own guns and was one of the few permitted to do so, but there was no reason to bring them to the boat.

Now I have sailed for 11 years in the Caribbean. I bought a shotgun after some serious incidents with post hurricane looters and St Lucia criminals. Is it needed? Not in most places during normal times. It made a difference once in Venezuelan waters but I would have gotten away without it as our boat was faster than theirs. Still, they aborted their attempt to intercept me when noticing our preparations for defense.

When reported like Atoll describes the shotgun is not a problem at all in this area. Even in places that are officially not allowing it, the officers can decide to let you keep the gun and they did in all the places we visited. I am sure they profile you to come to their decision.

I have not been in any high risk areas for 5 years but kept the gun anyway as it keeps well (mariner no corrosion edition) and that "you never know" thought is not going away. There was even a Spanish pirate here who killed two sailors and took their boats before he was caught; one was a friend of ours and it is those incidents that requires some of us to have guns and stand up against these animals, so that others who can't bear the thought don't have to. There, I'm at the wolves and dogs story again
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Old 26-10-2014, 05:01   #680
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Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
The arguments are endless and circular. The issue I have with this strategy is determining intent from 300 yards away.

"What if they are just fishermen exercising their right to carry while sidling up to sell you some fish."

If visible weapons were the only test of whether there is going to be a gun fight no one would have made it out of the 1800's alive when presumably everyone visibly carried.

If you carry the "home invasion" defense forward don't you have to wait until they shoot at you or try to board?

If you wanted to "isolate" your boat from any approaches, fishermen or otherwise, how would you signal to stand off and stay clear before you started taking shots at them?

If I were to carry I think the research shows that a shotgun is the right "home defense" weapon. Of course this lets the bad guy get a lot closer than you want, if in fact the approaching boat is a bad guy

I see most of these threads as a combination of fear of being attakced plus fear of being undefended.

Boats are vulnerable for sure, that is obvious. I guess the risk of attack can be reduced by avoiding places where there is higher likelihood of attack and on balance that is my strategy.

A very good summary of the issues.

I would also add. That the debate needs to internationalised, US gun advocates have a rather bizarre view of arguing world situations as of they were actually boat along the coast of the US. Sometimes you'd think Somalia was next to California. !

In many countries ( and their waters) simply brandishing a firearm in public can get you arrested, don't even mind threatening someone, then you must bear in mind that, most countries, outside of you land based home, do NOT give you the absolute right to pre-emptive self defense ( or even post-emptive).

Hence. Imagine your in territorial waters and you get nervous of an approaching fishing boat, you display the weapon , or even fire a warning shot he then reports you. A police boat steams over the horizon, and you spend a considerable amount of time in the local jail.

Most countries take firearms violations very very seriously.


Again, you cannot argue the whole issue from a US boats cruising the US coast perspective, where you are perfectly entitled to do lots of things. ( bizarrely however in my experience the US coastal cruising area is the last place you NEED a gun , unless you need to shoot sports boats and jet ski owners !)

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Old 26-10-2014, 07:18   #681
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
A very good summary of the issues.

I would also add. That the debate needs to internationalised, US gun advocates have a rather bizarre view of arguing world situations as of they were actually boat along the coast of the US. Sometimes you'd think Somalia was next to California. !

In many countries ( and their waters) simply brandishing a firearm in public can get you arrested, don't even mind threatening someone, then you must bear in mind that, most countries, outside of you land based home, do NOT give you the absolute right to pre-emptive self defense ( or even post-emptive).

Hence. Imagine your in territorial waters and you get nervous of an approaching fishing boat, you display the weapon , or even fire a warning shot he then reports you. A police boat steams over the horizon, and you spend a considerable amount of time in the local jail.

Most countries take firearms violations very very seriously.


Again, you cannot argue the whole issue from a US boats cruising the US coast perspective, where you are perfectly entitled to do lots of things. ( bizarrely however in my experience the US coastal cruising area is the last place you NEED a gun , unless you need to shoot sports boats and jet ski owners !)

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I would say that the people who panic and do things like that, are probably the same people who panic and abandon ship, or call the Coast Guard to come get them, with their boat being found floating three months later (is that the general theory here, that a gun is like a life raft or an EPIRB- having one around encourages you to use it when it's really not necessary?).
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Old 26-10-2014, 07:25   #682
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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I would say that the people who panic and do things like that, are probably the same people who panic and abandon ship, or call the Coast Guard to come get them, with their boat being found floating three months later (is that the general theory here, that a gun is like a life raft or an EPIRB- having one around encourages you to use it when it's really not necessary?).
Maybe, I don't believe so, I think a gun defense is much more an offensive process then most people accept. Typically it requires, forethought, some training and ability to carry it off. This in itself differentiates it from EPIRBS and so forth.

The trouble with guns, is that people believe the popular culture, that gun use keeps you safe, EPIRBS don't keep you safe. they merely tell others,

Hence, there is a very dangerous notion, that merely having firearm is going to lead to a "safer" processes. IN many cases , it may be far far safer to have no firearm at all.


Its a very complex area, and it gets all caught up in self-image, politics, advocacy, freedoms etc most of which are utterly irrelevant to matter at hand.


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Old 26-10-2014, 07:29   #683
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Now I have sailed for 11 years in the Caribbean. I bought a shotgun after some serious incidents with post hurricane looters and St Lucia criminals.
Jedi,

Come join our Gun Owners discussion group, your input will be most welcome. Bring along your laser sword.

Ken
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Old 26-10-2014, 07:33   #684
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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Maybe, I don't believe so, I think a gun defense is much more an offensive process then most people accept. Typically it requires, forethought, some training and ability to carry it off. This in itself differentiates it from EPIRBS and so forth.

The trouble with guns, is that people believe the popular culture, that gun use keeps you safe, EPIRBS don't keep you safe. they merely tell others,

Hence, there is a very dangerous notion, that merely having firearm is going to lead to a "safer" processes. IN many cases , it may be far far safer to have no firearm at all.


Its a very complex area, and it gets all caught up in self-image, politics, advocacy, freedoms etc most of which are utterly irrelevant to matter at hand.


dave
That's okay. I didn't think for a minute that people who don't like guns, would see it that way.

I was in a church one time, and the preacher talked about guns, and said it was better to let yourself be robbed, harmed, raped, killed, whatever, than to resist and hurt your attacker. I realized then, that there were a lot of people in the world who thought very differently than I did about some things.

As far as I am concerned anyone who wants to be that way, has that right. Just don't try and force me to be that way. Because, it won't happen.
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Old 26-10-2014, 07:38   #685
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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That's okay. I didn't think for a minute that people who don't like guns, would see it that way.
I like guns, I don't like them on a boat , thats all

break into my house though, you better wish Im not at home.!!! ( see even I succumb to the BS statement stuff !!!)

Quote:
I was in a church one time
as an atheist
, you can imagine ,I don't spend much time on the viewpoints of "preachers"
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Old 26-10-2014, 07:55   #686
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

=== the preacher talked about guns, and said it was better to let yourself be robbed, harmed, raped, killed, whatever, than to resist and hurt your attacker ===

To each his own. I suppose I could make such a decision about myself but I have a very hard time thinking about watching the POS do this to my child or my spouse.
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Old 26-10-2014, 07:59   #687
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

I guess in the end, years of Boy Scouts, really had an imprint on me.

I still try and live by the Boy Scout motto in every way:

Be Prepared!

And, self sufficiency in as many ways as possible is a big part of my life philosophy. Yesterday, I pulled the 5KW diesel generator from my boat by myself to work on it (it's sitting on my shop work table at my hosue right now). It weighs 377 pounds and my wife asked me why I wouldn't ask for help. I couldn't explain it. I just like being self sufficient, and knowing for sure now, that I could pull the thing by myself, sitting in some deserted anchorage, if I needed to.
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Old 26-10-2014, 08:03   #688
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

I practice self sufficiency whenever I can. When sailing in isolated places you must be able to handle stuff.

Folks may offer to assist and I sometimes accept. I do try to explain that I need to be able to do things on my own in as nice a way possible as some folks believe it is their prerogative to help whether I want it or not.
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Old 26-10-2014, 08:10   #689
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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That's okay. I didn't think for a minute that people who don't like guns, would see it that way. :big-grin:

I was in a church one time, and the preacher talked about guns, and said it was better to let yourself be robbed, harmed, raped, killed, whatever, than to resist and hurt your attacker. I realized then, that there were a lot of people in the world who thought very differently than I did about some things.

As far as I am concerned anyone who wants to be that way, has that right. Just don't try and force me to be that way. Because, it won't happen.
It must be me and my upbringing, but I was taught an eye for an eye, and don't wait for your eye to be injured first. I "walk softly and carry a very big stick", my boat is always equipped with a lever action 30/30 and a Taurus 357 magnum hand gun, and I happen to be a very good shot. I think that amounts to, stay away from my boat!


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Old 26-10-2014, 08:16   #690
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Re: Guns on a Boat, Yes or No?

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It must be me and my upbringing, but I was taught an eye for an eye, and don't wait for your eye to be injured first. I "walk softly and carry a very big stick", my boat is always equipped with a lever action 30/30 and a Taurus 357 magnum hand gun, and I happen to be a very good shot. I think that amounts to, stay away from my boat!


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