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Old 29-10-2014, 17:12   #16
tob
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Tob

I cjecked pricing on a couple of these on Scanboat - how do you figure on buying any of these for 50k euros? Virtually all of them start at 100k euros and go up.

Whatever you buy - figure on having to invest 30-40k euro's ingetting it ready.

By the way- re: Phantoms. I don't personally know the boat I sent the link on, but I do have friends who have a Phantom so I know the boat type - good boat.
Hej!

I found HR Rasmus 35 feet for around 395000 SEK on Swedish "blocket" trading website. I made it simple and assumed 10 SEK = 1 EUR. Also checked out a really nice Najad 37 for 795000 SEK, a bit too much of course. We could probably save up to 50000 EUR in three years. Feels like we should get a pretty good boat for that year 2017? Heard English boats are pretty worn interior-wise?

Will check out the Phantom.

I Heard spending 10K EUR to get it ready is realistic? Will join the Ocean Skipper's club in Sweden jan 1, 2015. They have training courses that are interesting.

Somone else asked about the kids and how to fit. Firstly, we are happy in the Albin Ballad 30 feet during 5-6 weeks in the summer (+ a dog), they all sleep in the stern cabin together. Soon the oldest will want to sleep in the aft berth under the cockpit on one side. Three Girls aged 4, 6, 8 currently. The oldest one will probably only take part on some passages during ARC as I got shared (50%) custody with my ex. I have to sell my ex the idea also. Maybe in two years time I'll bring it up, also to the employer (might have give up the job, face unemployment when back home). A few obstacles but still - I'm crazy enough to do it! It'll be a rewarding experience for the kids. Many nay-sayers on Swedish forums, so please don't give me that. Constructive criticism however is always welcome! Don't know about foreign upbringing but in Sweden it is customary to give a 12-year old the benefit of a choice a bit (you are not allowed to decide everything for yourself until 18, but anyway). So she'll be part of the deciding process. More when 12 than now when only 8, of course. If you know what I mean.

So if we take the Najad 343 for example. Seems you got a pretty large aft cabin. One girl could sleep in the saloon. The 8 and 10 year old (two youngest) ought to be able to share room, I mean the oldest now (8 year) is sharing room in the villa with the 6 year old so...

As owner of Albin Ballad, naturally I read "Papa Blondie's" book about circumnavigating with an Albin Ballad 30 feet. This was late 70s, early 80s somewhere. He described how he met a Swedish family of four in an Albin Vega in the Caribbean! Isn't it a fact that people just want bigger and bigger boats? Our boat, a 30 feet vessel, was considered large in the 70s! People are different I suppose. In this family we light it tight!

Cheers
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Old 30-10-2014, 01:08   #17
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Originally Posted by tob View Post
Hej!

I found HR Rasmus 35 feet for around 395000 SEK on Swedish "blocket" trading website. I made it simple and assumed 10 SEK = 1 EUR. Also checked out a really nice Najad 37 for 795000 SEK, a bit too much of course. We could probably save up to 50000 EUR in three years. Feels like we should get a pretty good boat for that year 2017? Heard English boats are pretty worn interior-wise?

Will check out the Phantom.

I Heard spending 10K EUR to get it ready is realistic? Will join the Ocean Skipper's club in Sweden jan 1, 2015. They have training courses that are interesting.

Somone else asked about the kids and how to fit. Firstly, we are happy in the Albin Ballad 30 feet during 5-6 weeks in the summer (+ a dog), they all sleep in the stern cabin together. Soon the oldest will want to sleep in the aft berth under the cockpit on one side. Three Girls aged 4, 6, 8 currently. The oldest one will probably only take part on some passages during ARC as I got shared (50%) custody with my ex. I have to sell my ex the idea also. Maybe in two years time I'll bring it up, also to the employer (might have give up the job, face unemployment when back home). A few obstacles but still - I'm crazy enough to do it! It'll be a rewarding experience for the kids. Many nay-sayers on Swedish forums, so please don't give me that. Constructive criticism however is always welcome! Don't know about foreign upbringing but in Sweden it is customary to give a 12-year old the benefit of a choice a bit (you are not allowed to decide everything for yourself until 18, but anyway). So she'll be part of the deciding process. More when 12 than now when only 8, of course. If you know what I mean.

So if we take the Najad 343 for example. Seems you got a pretty large aft cabin. One girl could sleep in the saloon. The 8 and 10 year old (two youngest) ought to be able to share room, I mean the oldest now (8 year) is sharing room in the villa with the 6 year old so...

As owner of Albin Ballad, naturally I read "Papa Blondie's" book about circumnavigating with an Albin Ballad 30 feet. This was late 70s, early 80s somewhere. He described how he met a Swedish family of four in an Albin Vega in the Caribbean! Isn't it a fact that people just want bigger and bigger boats? Our boat, a 30 feet vessel, was considered large in the 70s! People are different I suppose. In this family we light it tight!

Cheers
Tob

far be it for me to be a nay-sayer. I do think your 10k for outfitting is unrealistic. But it all depends on what you want/need for the boat. Her is a short list of things and their approximate cost (all assuming you can do all the installation yourself) Some may be on the boat in good condition, some not, some you will decide not to have

new sails -10k
watermaker - 5k
new chartplotter/AIS - 5k
SSB radio - 4-5k or
sat telefon - 7-8k
additional batteries/solar etc - 3-4 k
dinghy/motor - (hypalon dinghy) 4k
liferaft - 2-3k
windvane - 4k
spare parts plus assorted other things - 5k

total roughly 50k - now you can chop that list down or add to it - but unless you are going very spartan - that is the kind of money you will end up spending.

Before doing all this - buy a copy of Beth Leonards book - "The voyagers handbook". It will tell you everything (and I do mean everything) you need to consider before setting out.

If Beth doesn't discuss it in her book - you don't need to know it.

Here is a link to their website:

bethandevans.com

Lots of good reading there.

Re: watermakers - with 5 or more on board you'll need a lot of water capacity. Watercatchment systems from rain do work and are cheap, assuming it rains. 2 liters per person per day is in survival mode - with kids etc - figure 5 liters (or more) per person per day. 5 persons x 5 liters x 30 days = 750 liters for an atlantic crossing.


Peopel do cruise on your budget - but it is awfully tight and does not allow for any luxuries

good luck
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Old 30-10-2014, 07:00   #18
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Hi tob,

First, congratulations and good luck. I'm 2 weeks away from starting our own voyage. We'll be sailing the med until I feel we are confident to do a transatlantic. Your budget is doable. But those boats won't come to you nor will they show up online. A boat in that range will be a bit of luck and lots of research. As someone told me, go down to the marina and ask the captain who's looking to get rid of a boat. Chances are it will be someone elderly or deceased, or someone going through divorce . GRP boats will last thousands of years, they are expensive to keep and expensive to get rid of.

You're definitely not going to get a boat that is well equipped. This is not a big deal. The previous owner may have spent 10k on a radar, 20 years ago. You can get a decent MFD-radar combo for 2000EUR. Just check any big marine store for a B&G, Simrad, Garmin, or Raymarine combo.

The boat I recently purchased came well equipped for coastal cruising. The electrical system was in good shape. I added 300W of flexible solar for 500EUR. The price of solar panels are dropping regularly. About 1eur/Watt for the rigid kind. This is more than enough to keep our batteries charged, 2 laptops, iPads, and instruments. If you did get an older boat with solar panels the wattage would probably be in the 50-80W range.

Sails? i have no expertise in this. Each owner will have to make that decision. But I think you can tell whether the sails will need to be replaced.

Watermaker? I wouldn't waste any money on it. You only really need it for major passages. And for that you can rent one.

MFD+Radar+AIS transponder: 1000+1000+500EUR

EPIRB: 600EUR
I wouldn't go anywhere without one. Make sure it has GPS.

Safety gear: 1500EUR
Our boat came with harnesses, for adults. I purchased some for the kids and replaced the lifebuoys that were sun weathered.

Liferaft: 2000EUR

SSB? If they are far away use email. If they are close enough, VHF. At this point I'd only get SSB if someone gave me a fantastic deal or it was already on the boat.

Satphone: 700EUR + 100EUR/month. The Iridium GO looks to be a fantastic deal. Much better than SSB at this point.

Batteries? Find a wholesaler for LiFePo4. Lighter and better value. I don't need them, yet. Our boat came with 8 new, sealed batteries. It's not what I would have bought but I won't complain. BTW, 12V Li batteries are $1500 for 300Ah. Unlike lead, you can use almost all 300Ah.

Dinghy 1000EUR. Motor is optional.

Spare parts? Spend 5000 if you want to. Sail it first, figure out what's likely to break and buy that. After I bought our boat, and regardless of what the previous owner said, I had the engine removed and overhauled. It cost me a lot of money up front. The mechanic, a master Yanmar Yoda, walked me through every part of my engine told me exactly what will need to be maintained and when to do it and what to look out for. He gave me a shopping list and I bought exactly that. The spares were 800. The overhaul (labour + parts) was 4k.

I consider myself a frugal sailor. I'm still on year 0 and I've made plenty of mistakes. You can cross the Atlantic on your budget. Be smart. evaluate the need/want of everything (you need an EPIRB, you want a watermaker), and have fun. Spend the money on the engine. Modern sailboats are fancy power boats. The guys fixing things in exotic locations could have probably saved a lot of time spending money on a reputable mechanic.

I'm listening to a podcast right now of someone who crossed the Atlantic on a 5k boat, then crossed the pacific on a 20k boat.
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Old 30-10-2014, 07:27   #19
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Carstend and Yardie have valid points. We are preparing Eleuthera for a RTW and our findings are roughly the same.

Except... for us... and likely for you as well, you will want a water maker. The one we chose is a dual power AC and DC unit. 100 liter/hr and nearly €10000.

HF set: the only moderate priced units are the Icom units. The 802E is no longer manufactured because the Eurocrats changed the standards. The only units which meet EU standards are the Icom 801E if you can find one. The 801E is a far better unit than the 802E. About €5000 plus whip antenna.

Spares will also cost you a bundle.

Sails should cost you less than €6000... a full set of sails for my large ketch is €7800.

Good luck with your project.
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Old 30-10-2014, 18:45   #20
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Thanks for good advice. I am in the middle of Beth Leonard's book actually. I signed up for a SSB course in a few weeks. Doesn't mean I will buy one when it comes to that but anyway.

Watermaker, I think not, rather bring plenty of water. They seem error-prone, one thing I am allergic to, error-prone mechanical devices, electronics and gadgets. Keep it simple stupid, or as we say in diving DIR = Doing it Right. So I will keep the boat to a minimum. The ARC though sets a standard of things we must buy (a bit more than what I want). I am a bit of a handy-man when it comes to Electronics and the electrical system, due to my profession. I would like to become more proficient in mending the engine. I do have a love-hate relationship with my Volvo Penta diesel engine in current boat. Maybe buy a boat with a shitty Engine = cheaper, and replace with a cheap Chinese diesel? Dinghy - like I wrote, keep it simple, I don't trust 4-stroke petrol engines. Rather buy a 2-stroke Suzuki for example. Maybe good to have +12 hp so we get somewhere fast enough, do shopping and stuff.

I want a sextant and also learn how to use it. Don't trust electronics. Wind generator - don't Think so, rather a lot of solar panels (like current boat, got enough to run the fridge and never run the engine).

I did for a while check out Wood Colin Archers, 39 feet. They seem like safe boats. Or should I check out steel boats. Plastic does have some problems. It's not as water-proof as one might Think.

Cheers
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Old 30-10-2014, 19:19   #21
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Norwegian couple in St Johns, heading home after 5 years and two babies.
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Old 31-10-2014, 03:02   #22
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Nice Bavaria above.. :-) and it cruised the Atlantic and now going back to Norway... we presume.

I owned an older Bav 46 Exclusive for 7 years and it was very well built... Bavaria was a semi custom manufacturer then; until they decided to go for market share. The fit and finish was near the Najad standard but it sailed better as it had the deep keel and the tall rig. Do not shy away from these boats.

Personally, (opinion follows) I think Bavs are better built than the Ben Jens from France. Most are Lloyds 100 certified... this is not a small achievement.

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Old 31-10-2014, 06:22   #23
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

No, the kids were born in Oz. She was returning from a round the world.
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Old 01-11-2014, 02:53   #24
tob
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Ok I will open my mind to all boats for now. Will check out Phantoms. Buying a boat for 30000 Eur and outfit it for 10000-20000 Eur might be realistic for us. In Sweden I would employ a surveyor person. Not sure how that works in England, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany? Didn't put Norway on the list, it's an extremely expensive country, but maybe not for pre-owned boats? You feel a bit like an amateur when trying to coordinate things in another country.

All these gadgets you mention along with high prices, what about having a PC with navigation software and connect various devices to it? What about downloadable charts... I guess only Bill Gates would buy all charts for a circumnavigation. Refer to corresponding chapter in Beth's book...

Cheers
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:53   #25
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Originally Posted by tob View Post
Ok I will open my mind to all boats for now. Will check out Phantoms. Buying a boat for 30000 Eur and outfit it for 10000-20000 Eur might be realistic for us. In Sweden I would employ a surveyor person. Not sure how that works in England, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany? Didn't put Norway on the list, it's an extremely expensive country, but maybe not for pre-owned boats? You feel a bit like an amateur when trying to coordinate things in another country.

All these gadgets you mention along with high prices, what about having a PC with navigation software and connect various devices to it? What about downloadable charts... I guess only Bill Gates would buy all charts for a circumnavigation. Refer to corresponding chapter in Beth's book...

Cheers
Yes you should get a survey before buying. If you get close to a boat in Denmark, PM me. I konw wome surveyors. Re: PC and Downloadable charts,

While some do it, a chartplotter iat the helm is really a godsend when coastal navigating. Depending onthe size of screen features etc. These can be less expensive (I think Garmin has some that are not too outrageous). Charts do cost money - sorry but they do. Good quality downloadable to a chartplotter also cost money.

If you go the PC route - Use OpenCPN (do a search here on CF - ltos of threads on OPenCPN including where to get it etc etc.) The program is free and charts are generally afforable (or free).

You can buy a VHF radio with a small screen and hook your AIS to it - but unless that is in the cockpit - it is not of much value when you are in very congested waters (f.eks. the english channel). Personally I would buy a chartplotter that has the possibility of having AIS and radar - but that is your decision.

Watermakers are also a personal decision, but with 3 kids and extra crew, you'll use a lot of water. If you want to see how you can do. You have a coastal cruiser now. Next summer, go for a 1 week sail. Fill your tanks and then DO NOT refill them anywhere along the way in marina etc. This will give you a quick idea of just how much water you use (more than you think).
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:23   #26
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

Tob, there are going to be 5 of you, and all close to adult requirements by the time you leave. As stated elsewhere, 2 l. per person per day is really not very much water, if you are used to living on land, and the warmer it gets, the harder it is to stay to that. So, please give it a lot of thought.

As to a boat that you did not mention, how about a VIA 36? They're old, now, and not too weatherly, but there is a forepeak open to the saloon [imagine a curtain for privacy], and two aft cabins, so you might be able to manage the living spaces. Our friends with them have installed small electric refrigerators (for the tropics), and my main concerns with one of them would be that the ballast might need to be re-bedded, and I'd want a close look at all the welds.

Good luck with it.

Ann
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:43   #27
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Originally Posted by Eleuthera 2014 View Post
Nice Bavaria above.. :-) and it cruised the Atlantic and now going back to Norway... we presume.

I owned an older Bav 46 Exclusive for 7 years and it was very well built... Bavaria was a semi custom manufacturer then; until they decided to go for market share. The fit and finish was near the Najad standard but it sailed better as it had the deep keel and the tall rig. Do not shy away from these boats.

Personally, (opinion follows) I think Bavs are better built than the Ben Jens from France. Most are Lloyds 100 certified... this is not a small achievement.

Will check out

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:45   #28
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Yes you should get a survey before buying. If you get close to a boat in Denmark, PM me. I konw wome surveyors. Re: PC and Downloadable charts,

While some do it, a chartplotter iat the helm is really a godsend when coastal navigating. Depending onthe size of screen features etc. These can be less expensive (I think Garmin has some that are not too outrageous). Charts do cost money - sorry but they do. Good quality downloadable to a chartplotter also cost money.

If you go the PC route - Use OpenCPN (do a search here on CF - ltos of threads on OPenCPN including where to get it etc etc.) The program is free and charts are generally afforable (or free).

You can buy a VHF radio with a small screen and hook your AIS to it - but unless that is in the cockpit - it is not of much value when you are in very congested waters (f.eks. the english channel). Personally I would buy a chartplotter that has the possibility of having AIS and radar - but that is your decision.

Watermakers are also a personal decision, but with 3 kids and extra crew, you'll use a lot of water. If you want to see how you can do. You have a coastal cruiser now. Next summer, go for a 1 week sail. Fill your tanks and then DO NOT refill them anywhere along the way in marina etc. This will give you a quick idea of just how much water you use (more than you think).
Excellent advice! Saved to my knowledge Base! Got ais capable vhf today

The Albin Ballad is actually "oceanklassad". The boat type has sailed around the world.

I was thinking bringing 2-3 laptops, 1-2 installed and tested and vacuum sealed!

Cheers/skål

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:47   #29
tob
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Re: Finding the family cruiser

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Tob, there are going to be 5 of you, and all close to adult requirements by the time you leave. As stated elsewhere, 2 l. per person per day is really not very much water, if you are used to living on land, and the warmer it gets, the harder it is to stay to that. So, please give it a lot of thought.

As to a boat that you did not mention, how about a VIA 36? They're old, now, and not too weatherly, but there is a forepeak open to the saloon [imagine a curtain for privacy], and two aft cabins, so you might be able to manage the living spaces. Our friends with them have installed small electric refrigerators (for the tropics), and my main concerns with one of them would be that the ballast might need to be re-bedded, and I'd want a close look at all the welds.

Good luck with it.

Ann
Should we bring a gas welder BTW? Cheers

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Old 09-11-2014, 02:22   #30
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Re: Finding the Family Cruiser

Will this boat do?
Jag vill tipsa om en annons på Blocket
http://www.blocket.se/vi/56396996.htm


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