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Old 24-02-2007, 18:13   #46
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I cannot actually think of anything bad the PO did. She was entirely honest with me about Perro's shortcomings and the work she had got done was of top quality and nothing I have since seen has made me change my opinion of either the boat or the PO. Both very honest.

Plus she did not strip the boat bare. I inherited boxes of screws, nuts, spare parts and even tools and loads of useful (and some not so useful / still a mystery!) bits and pieces which although in total of no great monetary value has just made my life easier.

Not to say that Perro was in perfect condition, but no nasty surprises.

It can happen!
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Old 25-02-2007, 08:51   #47
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If one was being truely carefull a conversation with a lawyer before engaging a surveyor would be usefull.
One could then get a meaningfull verbal agreement. Make some notes in the relevant diary (Check this with the solicitor too!) and have some confidence in the outcome.
It would only take one surveyor to lose his pants for the rest of them too sharpen up their acts.
Good point Chris - the legal jargon in surveys is designed to protect the surveyor more than the client. Maybe I'll get busy and design an addendum that prospective purchasers can have as part of their agreement with the surveyor outlining his responsibilities should items of a consequential nature be missed, he will be responsible for the costs of repair. If this is offered to the boating community through all the channels and enough of us start to require it's inclusion in our agreement with them, most surveyors will come to understand that the boating community is serious about recourse on a poor survey.

BTW this surveyor has the highest credentials and designations in his profession including a 100 ton masters ticket. If you profess to be the best, you'd better be. I'll see what his response is and post it back to this site. Also if I develop a form as to the surveyors liability. I'll have it checked by my contract lawyer and post it's availability if anyone would like it.

Thanks all for your help.
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Old 25-02-2007, 13:47   #48
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Most surveyers would run a mile if you wanted to add that.
The liability would not be worth the fee they charged.
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Old 25-02-2007, 15:49   #49
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When we consult a marine surveyor, we are paying (hourly) for an informed opinion - not a guarantee.
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Old 25-02-2007, 16:32   #50
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Take us for a sea trial

We went out with: no working vhf, fuel gage on Empty, torn sails, broken swage on lower shroud, no life preservers and the head was plumbed to drain into the bilge. I was a rookie way back then (still am), but I did chew out the broker. He knew better, he owned the same type of boat. I knew better too, but I was in lust with her.

The shorepower was wired with solid core house wire and connected with wire nuts right over the gasoline tank too, amongst other things I can't remember. We got a good price on her and I worked on it for 2 weeks before making the 100 mile sail to our home berth.
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Old 25-02-2007, 16:38   #51
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OK Gord but are you suggesting there should be no recourse if you rely upon that opinion for a purchase or condition of a vessel and the surveyor misses very important issues? What would you do if a surveyor cost you alot of extra dollars more than planned? I had stated in my first post that I expect there to be some minor oversites in any survey as they are not perfect like the rest of us. In this case, he did not even inspect the dodger/bimini/cockpit enclosure but stated it was 'like new' - also missed the rudder post problem which is a major safety issue and prior repaired damage to the hull. I am not looking for a guarantee but more of a legal acknowledgement of responsibility if major items are missed and the purchasers recourse outlined in such an occurance. This would IMO persuade the surveyor to do a complete and proficient job and not skip any areas. I asked the btoker and he said the surveyor spent 2 to 3 hours at the boat which with say up to 2 hours preparing the report would put his hourly rate at $170.00. For this rate I would expect a complete and thorough examination of everything inside and outside the boat that could be inspected and accessed and all the deficiencies I mentioned were easily accessed. Are my expectations too high - what are yours?
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Old 25-02-2007, 21:04   #52
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I expect a thorough, professional approach...

... from a surveyor.

That is, they should work systematically through the boat checking each structure and system.

Their report should include some estimate of the nature (number of hours to fix) and cost of repairs.

What I would discuss with a surveyor before engaging them would be the nature and extent of their survey, and the reliability of the results. The call to the solicitor would be to make sure the discussion was put, and recorded, in such a way as to constitute part of the contract.

If the result of the survey turned out to be very different to the boat when purchased the surveyor may be held responsible.

Every tradesperson or professional that I consult is responsible for what they say or do. Why should surveyors be any different?
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Old 25-02-2007, 23:24   #53
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What We Found Later.....

First deep keeler was a 24' sloop - fairly basic in most respects. I did find out that although a small switchboard was installed, nearly all electrical items, with exception of lights, was clipped to battery terminals with aligator clips, one on top of the other. Re-wired, and no problems.

Current boat, where do I start? I bought her as a project, but never thought I would discover some of the following:

PO had new plywood deck fitted to boat about 12 months prior to my purchase. Found that steel screws had been used to fix down ply to deck frames.

Lifeline bases had no backing plates fitted; found them a few months later in the bottom of one of the buckets of miscellaneous "stuff" that came with the boat.

Anyway nearly 4 years later we are nearly ready to go back in the water.

Fair winds

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Old 07-03-2007, 08:46   #54
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The PO had severed all hoses and electrical connections to the aux engine/ generator. Claimed it was okay, but he suspected there might be a problem with the generator. Yeah right. And absolutely NO way to tell. He lost that "deal" ... reduced the price of the boat by $2000.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:50   #55
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Used 5200 !!!!

This moron used 5200 on everthing and subsequently everything eventually leaked. This was in the days before De-Bond and such and I ruined a few items trying to replace them. I don't why so many sailors have bought into the 5200 scam hook, line and sinker! Sikaflex 291 LOT is more flexible by double and is much easier to remove. If you're going to use a 3M product at least use 101 or 4200 at the worst. The "death grip" factor has always amazed me when we are talking about items that are mechanically fastened? Sure a medium adhesion level is fine so that under flex the sealant does not disconnect from the fitting or deck but 5200 is just ridiculous.

According to 3M's own specs 5200 will strech 350% before break and Sikaflex 291 LOT will strech 700%. I'd much rather have a 1/32 of an inch bead that will strech 700% than one that will only strech 350% a 1/32 of an inch is not much. Stanchions are one flex area where 5200 should NEVER be used. Grab a stanchion and pull on it and watch the base plate flex. It's usually more than
5200 can handle for more than a few seasons!!
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Old 11-03-2007, 21:58   #56
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Our old boat had all the usual problems with wiring, we removed 4 bin liners of unconnected wire in 2003, then another 4 when I rewired the boat last year. Did occasionally say what **** idiot did this and then realised it was me when we first got the boat and I knew even less than I do now!

Haven't even got on the new boat yet, but when we got her antifouled we discovered that the epoxy barrier coat had been put on over 8 layers of antifoul and a previous barrier coat. Lots of dollars and stress later we were back to the glass and the job done properly.

Technically expanding the scope to worst work done on boat by a tradesman but worth it.

A friend of mine got his new anchor winch installed and for some reason best known to himself the electrician decided to run an additional wire from the ground to a "spare" bolt in the anchor locker. The "spare" bolt was stanchion base. His wife kept complaining she was getting a shock from the lifelines every time she raised the anchor and he kept saying don't be daft, then one day he noticed the toe rail was foaming and tracked the fault. New toe rail and a rewire later and all is well! Good anti pirate measure though.

I had a dribble from the siphon break on the engine, and mentioned it to the licensed Volvo mechanic who was looking at a bigger problem. He said I'll do a simple modification at no charge to solve that minor irritant. So he plumbed an over flow hose from the vented loop into a T on the deck drain hose, so first time it rained the deck drained into the engine, filled it with water and gave me a hydraulic seize!
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Old 12-03-2007, 02:20   #57
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so first time it rained the deck drained into the engine, filled it with water and gave me a hydraulic seize!
An authorised Volvo seize though!!!
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Old 02-02-2008, 21:03   #58
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Lazy SOB... YUCK!!!

Since all the batteries were out apres cooking I decided to remove the bottom of the battery box and have a look at the keel bolts. Our batteries lie on center line above the bilge which I've discovered is about 6 inches deeper than my arm's length while lying prone on the salon deck. Ask me how I know.....

So it turns out that the PO was either really lazy or a true old school sailor who thought nothing of dumping that used engine oil in the bilge. You know, a little bilge cleaner tossed in, add some water then pump it out next time you're offshore....

Problem is that in normal at-rest trim, this particular bilge area is about 5ft from the fwd bilge pump which is also slightly uphill. So all that lovely stuff just sits in there with nowhere to go. Turns out the limber hole was nearly clogged with sludge anyway...

I just spent a good 9 hours cleaning out all that crap. No wonder we had an oily smell aboard that I hadn't been able to track down. UGH!

I guess waste oil management means "out of sight in the bilge" to some people...
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Old 03-02-2008, 13:59   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SydneyTim View Post
Our old boat had all the usual problems with wiring, we removed 4 bin liners of unconnected wire in 2003, then another 4 when I rewired the boat last year. Did occasionally say what **** idiot did this and then realised it was me when we first got the boat and I knew even less than I do now!...
Although Iím a master electrician (for over 35 years), and boatwright, I can say some of the same.
See also my post at:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f66/lakes-verses-oceans-6485.html
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Old 03-02-2008, 16:56   #60
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Lets see, so far, Silicone caulking on the interior walls, yup, caulk where the leak is dripping, instead of fixing leak outside... 8ft run of wire spliced 5 times, yellow-green-yellow-black-red all this thru 4 cabinets and not connected either end... and oh yea, gate valve on holding tank, with both it and thru hull open, can you say full tank, and not pretty either... looked like small fish pond swimming in and out.. but hey, didnt say boats was easy...
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