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Old 17-10-2010, 23:03   #16
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In an effort to not get this thead closed

We have to Boycott Japan and their commerical fisheries/whaling.

We also need to watch where we buy our shrimp/oysters/crabmeat from.

What you buy as "Chesapeake Style Crabcakes" comes from meat from

East Bum-Farrago (Thanks Tristan Jones)
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Old 18-10-2010, 00:56   #17
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i dont like crabcakes or blue crab. i know--is sacreligious, but i dont like the flavor. i like real crab.
i buy my shrimp from the shrimpers. or i barter...
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Old 26-12-2010, 09:16   #18
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The very title of this thread kinda annoyed me. Why don't we MAKE more fish? While I am sure it was not intended and I am being thin skinned the way the question is phrased implies a misunderstanding of natural systems.

In my simple curmudgeonly way I would say a more realistic question would be: Why don't we MAKE fewer humans?" if you see my point.

Well, it turns out there are a lot of really good reasons. Probably the best way to make more fish is to do nothing, leave 'em alone. The oceans were full of fish before we came around. But back as far as the 1400's there was some degree of fish stock depletion. There is serious thought that Columbus did not "discover" America but found out about it from fishermen who were working the Grand Banks. The thought was it's existence was secret known only to a few who didn't want competition. As soon as Banks were widely known they were fought over and exploited. They continued to support a large fishery until large trawls were introduced in my lifetime. This wiped out the fishery (95%+ bio mass depletion) and destroyed the economy of Newfoundland. Take away - modern man's techniques can be very destructive and counter productive in the long run.

Fish farming is a bit like meat production, it IS meat production. For cows we feed them corn and grow them and kill them. In the process we are taking a low level food stock (corn) and using a critter (cow) to produce a different food stuff (protein.) There is massive energy loss in the system, something like a 10:1 ratio. By eating lower on the food chain (vegetarian) you 'save' food (energy) by using it more efficiently. Very roughly speaking you could feed 10 people with the energy that goes into feeding one with beef.

The same math works if you 'MAKE more fish', you have to feed them. Where does the feed come from? Either by growing it and feeding it in pellets to pond raised fish or by harvesting critters lower on the food chain than the fish you want to eat. So you feed pellets to cat fish in ponds and menhaden to salmon in nets. But, in either case, you are not really solving any problem because the energy input into the system is still the same, or perhaps worse. We are not adapted to eating plankton directly, we eat it only once the energy has passed through some number of processing systems: little fish, bigger fish, salmon/tuna.

I hope that made some sense. I'm not an expert on this and make no claim. It's just that there is no free lunch, no perpetual motion machine. It is really just budgeting energy instead of dollars.

Below is a good Wiki article from which I have cherry picked a couple of quotes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhaden


Quote:
In recent years, menhaden are the primary source of fishmeal and fish oil, used as food for livestock and aquaculture, such as salmon. Atlantic menhaden are an important link between plankton and upper level predators.

There is increasing concern, especially from recreational fisherman and conservationists, that the Chesapeake Bay’s population is declining significantly.
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Old 26-12-2010, 09:29   #19
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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i dont like crabcakes or blue crab. i know--is sacreligious, but i dont like the flavor. i like real crab.
i buy my shrimp from the shrimpers. or i barter...


Chesapeake Bay’s crab population up 60 percent

Winter dredge survey says count is highest since 1997
Quote:

April 14, 2010|By Timothy B. Wheeler, The Baltimore Sun
KENT NARROWS — — The Chesapeake Bay's blue crab population has bounced back from dangerously low levels, Maryland officials announced Wednesday, reporting that a newly completed survey of the crustaceans counted more than have been seen in more than a decade.
A jubilant Gov. Martin O'Malley heralded the news from the waterfront deck of a seafood restaurant here, saying the winter crab survey justified the steps he and his counterpart in Virginia took two years ago to clamp down on the commercial catch. Both states shortened the season, slashing watermen's income, and Virginia banned its traditional practice of dredging slumbering female crabs from the bottom during winter.
"This is a great day," O'Malley said, a half-bushel of steamed crabs that had been caught in Dorchester County at his feet. "The Chesapeake Bay's blue crab population is actually roaring back, and actually coming back stronger than many would ever have predicted."
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Old 26-12-2010, 09:38   #20
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The answer is.........genetic modification

A blue fin tuna the size of a blue whale. with legs, so it can be kept in a barn
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Old 26-12-2010, 10:20   #21
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Probably the best way to make more fish is to do nothing, leave 'em alone.
I am lead to believe that after 6 long years of war once trawlers returned to the North Sea in 1946 they found the previous depleting herring stock had made a huge recovery which helped in a small way to feed a starving Europe.

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Old 26-12-2010, 10:20   #22
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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
..... Why don't we MAKE fewer humans?" if you see my point.
Works for me, but the lead time in seeing the reduction coming through is measured in decades. Fish generations are measured in years, not decades so in the short term we get a bigger payback by increasing fish numbers.

In the long run we need to get humanity's numbers down drastically. We could probably cope nicely with a billion but that will take centuries, not years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
... In the process we are taking a low level food stock (corn) and using a critter (cow) to produce a different food stuff (protein.) There is massive energy loss in the system, something like a 10:1 ratio. By eating lower on the food chain (vegetarian) you 'save' food (energy) by using it more efficiently. Very roughly speaking you could feed 10 people with the energy that goes into feeding one with beef.
Once again, I agree. But why not feed cows something that humans cannot eat (like grass) and convert that into something that humans can eat (like cow). Feeding OUR foodstuff to cattle is just dumb. That's why pigs are such great animals - they can (or will) eat most of what we discard as inedible, grow fat on it, then we can eat the pig.


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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
The same math works if you 'MAKE more fish', you have to feed them. Where does the feed come from?
Since there are (according to some) next to no fish left at all then whatever the fish ate previously must be building up because there are no fish left to eat them. Maybe we could do with some more fish......

Merry Xmas.....
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Old 26-12-2010, 10:29   #23
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I am lead to believe that after 6 long years of war once trawlers returned to the North Sea in 1946 they found the previous depleting herring stock had made a huge recovery which helped in a small way to feed a starving Europe.

Pete
That's why these marine reserves seem to work. Apparently fish stocks can recover very quickly - it's the persistance of the overfishing that keeps them down.
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Old 26-12-2010, 10:45   #24
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Caveat: I know very little about fish farming.
I live in BC and this topic is controversial and thus, hotly debated. Pro's: more fish. Con's: depends on what you believe. There are alleged health issues with farmed fish. If you're interested - there's lots of info on the web. Suffice it to say that many people boycott farmed fish choosing fresh. Personally, I think Mother Nature has had millions of years to get the balance right. What we (humans) do tends to screw things up. When we do screw up, it may not be noticeable for many years (tens or hundreds), or right away. Either way, we look for quick/cheap fixes. If you were in the hospital - would you want the best fix or something quick and cheap? I hope this isn't preachy as perhaps fish farming is just fine. Cheers,
Bill
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Old 26-12-2010, 14:57   #25
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Quote:
Minty said:
In the long run we need to get humanity's numbers down drastically. We could probably cope nicely with a billion but that will take centuries, not years.

I think you are right on with your population estimate. I hope you are right on with your time estimate. Here's to hoping we never find out.
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Old 27-12-2010, 01:45   #26
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Caveat: I know very little about fish farming.
I live in BC and this topic is controversial and thus, hotly debated. Pro's: more fish. Con's: depends on what you believe.
It's not fish farming that I'm proposing - I was thinking that since 90% of all fish get eaten in their eggs or just after they hatch (by other fish) then if we fiddled with that process by making, say, 25% of all fish survive rather than nature's 10% and then release those fish back into the wild at one or two months old. Hopefully this would bost the wild population.

Quote:
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I hope this isn't preachy as perhaps fish farming is just fine. Cheers,
Bill
It's an emotive topic like many environmental issues. I don't eat farmed fish myself becase the types I like (haddock, whiting, plaice, etc) do not seem to get farmed.
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