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Old 27-12-2015, 19:44   #526
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

In one example of what I am trying to drive at, which is that overfocus on climate change can actually be counterproductive environmentally, I offer the following. It has become a commonplace in the Caribbean (where I spent half a decade afloat fairly recently) that it is GW/CC which is damaging/destroying the reefs. This has led, it seemed to me, to a failure to acknowledge that it was not primarily GW/CC which has been damaging reefs in the Caribbean, at least in the Antilles region, but the overuse of plasticated wire mesh fish traps, and direct poisoning with the likes of bleach, which has wrecked these reef systems. How do I know this? Well, in all the islands which allow or do not prevent the latter damage by local "fishermen", the reefs are in an absolutely parlous state, with many islands showing above 90% barren and destroyed reef systems. And yet… in directly neighbouring islands, such as St. Eustatius, which have and pursue rigorous policies against the use of fish traps and poisons etc, the reefs are close to their original state, with dense growths of the usual species of corals, and an abundance of classic reef animal species. The same can be seen right here in Thailand. In the Similian islands, which are rigorously policed by environmental officers, the reefs are generally (outside anchorage areas and discounting tsunami damage) in pretty good condition with a wide variety of reef animal species and fishes. However just to the North, in the Surin group, the reefs are in dreadful state with very few reef animal species (I have dived both extensively, day and night). What is the observed difference? The presence of a sizeable "sea gypsy" community on the Surins, who dot the whole place with fish traps and have been known to use poisons on reefs to sell the produce to unscrupulous visiting fisherman, for sale on to Chinese markets. I have seen scores and scores of the fish traps at least, mainly abandoned but still killing, and others active, throughout the latter group, and noted the reefs are perhaps only 30 percent living.

A willingness to focus excessively on GW/CC as the cause of damage to reef structures is right now causing local authorities to be able to wave the problems away as a general issue about which they can do little, rather than a local issue about which they can do a whole lot!

What we needed to see in Paris was a united front of pressure on the likes of China to stop destroying the likes of the Spratlys and stop raping the oceans wholesale for any species that can be sold, eaten or used for their ridiculous, useless "medicine". The same applies to the Spanish, etc etc. These issues are what is most pressing right now. Yes ok GW/CC should be addressed. But should they be the primary focus of 90% of environmental policy? Not in my view. No.
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Old 27-12-2015, 19:48   #527
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

A couple of interesting articles on natural variations in ocean pH and comparison to the projected amount of "man made ocean acidification".

The Electric Oceanic Acid Test | Watts Up With That?
and
The Ocean Is Not Getting Acidified | Watts Up With That?
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:03   #528
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Strange, perception is everything.

I'm seeing an ever increasing number of former alarmists coming to their senses and realising what a con it all is.

This includes a growing number of scientists and even environmentalist who "become" sceptical at the end of their careers when they no longer have to tow the party line.


And given the relentless propaganda that the US has been subjected to over the last few years, I'm surprised that there are as many doubters as the polls indicate amongst the general public, who pay little attention to anything more than the TV news headlines ,
Not just on the climate change issue, but I think it's the relentless propaganda in general -- juxtaposed against the govt.'s failure to deliver -- that has both the U.S. Senate & House now governed by the political party that is almost uniformly opposed to the CC agenda. You can blame Big Oil, the Koch bros., the religious right, or whichever bogeyman suits at the moment, but each one of these Republican party legislators has a constituency, and together they comprise half or more of all US voters. It's the same sort of unsupported relentless propaganda, imho, that is driving so many primary voters towards fringe candidates on both sides who are viewed, rightly or wrongly, as outside the mainstream political establishment.

Moving the country forward on something as arcane & technocratic as CC, to say nothing of more basic issues such as economic uncertainty & malaise, health care, terrorism, etc., will never happen unless less polarization and more political consensus is achieved. But that requires more profiles in courage from politicians, and that in turn requires them to risk their prospects for re-election. In the U.S anyway, the purported scientific consensus on CC is meaningless without some political reform.
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:09   #529
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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What we needed to see in Paris was a united front of pressure on the likes of China to stop destroying the likes of the Spratlys and stop raping the oceans wholesale for any species that can be sold, eaten or used for their ridiculous, useless "medicine". The same applies to the Spanish, etc etc. These issues are what is most pressing right now.
+100

Unfortunately, since the whole premise of IPCC, COP21 et al is based on largely on Maurice Strong's beliefs and political leanings, that is the last thing that would happen.
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:13   #530
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

It was worth a look, Dave. But it obviously depends on the integrity of the underlying data and how it's interpreted, and that's often what lies at the center of these debates.
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:15   #531
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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+100

Unfortunately, since the whole premise of IPCC, COP21 et al is based on largely on Maurice Strong's beliefs and political leanings, that is the last thing that would happen.
Maurice Strong - the Canadian bogeyman.
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:22   #532
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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In neutralization, you stop at balance. Are you telling me your acidification actually knows how to stop itself?
How deep is the snow now it seems that winter is finally headed your way are you ready for it?
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Old 27-12-2015, 20:25   #533
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
A couple of interesting articles on natural variations in ocean pH and comparison to the projected amount of "man made ocean acidification".

The Electric Oceanic Acid Test | Watts Up With That?
and
The Ocean Is Not Getting Acidified | Watts Up With That?
Quite interesting Stu. Also highlights why it's so critical to keep some of the basic terminology straight.
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Old 28-12-2015, 11:40   #534
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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How deep is the snow now it seems that winter is finally headed your way are you ready for it?
We drove home today, about an hour in front of the snow & rain. Just waiting for it to start. There's rain behind the initial wave of snow, which will wash it away I'm sure. Tomorrow will be still above freezing.
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:09   #535
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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In one example of what I am trying to drive at, which is that overfocus on climate change can actually be counterproductive environmentally,
...
A willingness to focus excessively on GW/CC as the cause of damage to reef structures is right now causing local authorities to be able to wave the problems away as a general issue about which they can do little, rather than a local issue about which they can do a whole lot!
MF - I totally hear you on how the local situation can have greater and more immediate influence on reefs. But it was ever thus; if CC wasn't on the table, then the same locals would have some other excuse for not managing the reefs better.

CC is a separate but also important threat. The solution to CC will be systemic and global, andf does not draw on the local resources which could stop the local neglect you describe.


Quote:
What we needed to see in Paris was a united front of pressure on the likes of China to stop destroying the likes of the Spratlys and stop raping the oceans wholesale for any species that can be sold, eaten or used for their ridiculous, useless "medicine". The same applies to the Spanish, etc etc. These issues are what is most pressing right now. Yes ok GW/CC should be addressed. But should they be the primary focus of 90% of environmental policy? Not in my view. No.
Paris was a conference on climate. Nothing stops countries from organizing to also address other forms of pollution or resource overuse, and in fact they do.

Here's how the debate around CC does actually harm activity on other fronts: in their zeal to discredit the finding, the fossil-fuel lobby and their willing crowd of deniers are willing to demonize anyone and anything that seems to support the current findings. They attack the findings themselves, the integrity and competence of scientists. and the motives of governments that accept the findings. They attack and vilify any ecological organization as part of some great greenie soshulist conspiracy... because guess what? the same NGOs that are most concerned and active about local neglect of reefs are ALSO concerned about CC.

It's not action around CC that's stopping action on on other important fronts, it's the scorched-earth approach of the CC denier front which is indiscriminately attacking any pro-environment sentiment, period.
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:12   #536
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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It's not action around CC that's stopping action on on other important fronts, it's the scorched-earth approach of the CC denier front which is indiscriminately attacking any pro-environment sentiment, period.
"Denier"....see why all the Hate Speech....while at the same time being upset about it from others....hilarious...isn't Hate Speech illegal in Canada?
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:17   #537
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Forget about "Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years"

Heck....it doesn't Matter to Voters NOW....

Pew: Americans the least concerned about climate change | Washington Examiner

And now my friends you understand why all the hate and "Denier" talk from the MMGW Cultists. They have tried everything, from Al Gore to Polar Bears, to we will kill the earth, but none of it is working. So you have to step up the drum beat...make it Illegal to Criticize MMGW, Fire Professors that are "deniers". The war on Freedom must be retched up...damn the Torpedos, full steam ahead.
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:18   #538
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

As I sit here between Christmas and New Years Eve at 25 degrees in 5-6 feet of snow in the High Sierras, I'm having difficulty warming up to the concept of MMGW! Just thick headed, I guess...
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:27   #539
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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We drove home today, about an hour in front of the snow & rain. Just waiting for it to start. There's rain behind the initial wave of snow, which will wash it away I'm sure. Tomorrow will be still above freezing.
Glad to hear you are home and all is well.
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Old 28-12-2015, 12:28   #540
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
A couple of interesting articles on natural variations in ocean pH and comparison to the projected amount of "man made ocean acidification".

The Electric Oceanic Acid Test | Watts Up With That?
and
The Ocean Is Not Getting Acidified | Watts Up With That?
Quite interesting Stu. Also highlights why it's so critical to keep some of the basic terminology straight.
Not quire as interesting for me, Stu. I could simply point to the source and laugh, as you do with pro-AGW sites, but I actually skimmed the second link.

Unfortunately, at its heart it's just a longer version of the tortuous terminology games you've been playing with "Acidification" vs "Neutralization"

Both terms are applicable, actually; one term does not invalidate the other. In fact, one is cause and one is effect: increased CO2 taken up by the ocean generates more acid, this acid is acting to neutralize the (current) ocean's normal alkalinity. Increased acidification is producing neutralization.
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