Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-12-2015, 16:59   #511
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,735
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Yep, SkepticalScience at its best
The site where it doesn't matter if the ocean is alkaline it is still acid and 3 whole species of marine life are maybe, possibly, might be at risk if we don't curb our evil ways?

I can sure see why they put the "skeptical" in the name

But hey, at least you can sign up for a free alarmist course.
__________________

__________________
Reefmagnet is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 17:29   #512
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
The site where it doesn't matter if the ocean is alkaline it is still acid
Anyone who doesn't understand that making an alkaline solution less alkaline is correctly called 'acidification' is probably not equipped to discuss ocean chemistry.
__________________

__________________
Lake-Effect is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 17:47   #513
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,735
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Anyone who doesn't understand that making an alkaline solution less alkaline is correctly called 'acidification' is probably not equipped to discuss ocean chemistry.
Au contraire.This is basic chemistry at swimming pool maintenance grade. I guess "reduced alkilinity", "decreasing alkilinity toward pH neutral" and "moving towards an optimal pH balance" isn't scary enough. for some folks.

Edit: Case in point. The following alarmist propaganda courtesy of skepticalscience goes out of its way to imply that the ocean is turning acidic. Classic scare tactic.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...on+documentary
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 17:52   #514
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Anyone who doesn't understand that making an alkaline solution less alkaline is correctly called 'acidification' is probably not equipped to discuss ocean chemistry.
Actually, that's called "neutralisation". Acidification is reducing the pH to less than 7.

"Acidify
acid·i·fiedacid·i·fy·ing

transitive verb
1: to make acid
2: to convert into an acid"

Just another example of alarmist abuse of language to make things seem more scary.
__________________
StuM is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 17:54   #515
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,735
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Actually, that's called "neutralisation". Acidification is reducing the pH to less than 7.

"Acidify
acid·i·fiedacid·i·fy·ing

transitive verb
1: to make acid
2: to convert into an acid"

Just another example of alarmist abuse of language to make things seem more scary.
I knew there would be a single non-scary word to describe it!
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 18:26   #516
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Agreed. I fear, and observe, the number of "superstitiously committed naturopaths" are on the rise. It seems that fear and ignorance are now main drivers of our politics and our public discourse.



I agree with you MF that there are many more limits that we face than simple CO2 concentrations. And some are more immediately threatening. Resource depletion, local ecosystem destruction, pollution, flooding and drought for example. But the one thing about rapid climate change is that it exacerbates or underlies many of these other challenges.

Speaking of drought, I've been travelling through California, Nevada and Arizona these last few months, and the impacts of drought are ever-present. What's really jarring on the landscape, however, are the rectangular splashes of cultivated green that I've come across as we travel through some of the most desiccated and parched desert landscapes that I've ever seen. Orchards are planted in dust, but are lush and vibrant. Open irrigation channels carry water hundreds of km so we can grow oranges and lemons in a land that is suited for prickly pear cactus or joshua trees. Los Vegas is a surreal display of our power, and our folly.
It can do for sure, but it is always cast in a negative light, which strikes me as suspicious. Change in itself is neutral. Some benefits, some debits. For example, the Sahara is actually predicted to be greening, alleviating the droughts which have stricken the populations of North Africa for many generations. This effect is already being seen.

As to the suggestion by Sail Oar that the change taking place is at an unprecedented rate which is beyond evolutionary adaptive capacity: I call BS. We are in an interglacial period, and a few thousand years ago there were glaciers covering Manhattan and most of Northern Europe… Glaciation and deglaciations are typically very rapid indeed. Species have adapted. Yes, some will be wiped out, but pretending we can prevent all change to the environment and climate is absurd. There will be winners and losers, as per usual. However if we keep hoovering up the oceans biomass with advanced technologies, there really will only be losers. What we have to do is limit our direct impact upon the world through normal and conventional means… I agree that we should diversify in terms of our energy use, and I applaud our awareness of our modulation of atmospheric composition, but it is far from the most pressing problem we currently face!

As to the increasing water shortages etc in the SW US, it is pretty clear to me that the predominant reason for this is exactly what you have indicated: human water use and wastage. The Colorado river is a prime example. And this is exactly what I have been suggesting: blaming it on climate change is actually a great cover for the more obvious and direct damage we are doing, ourselves.
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 18:43   #517
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Actually, that's called "neutralisation".
In neutralization, you stop at balance. Are you telling me your acidification actually knows how to stop itself?
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 18:46   #518
Registered User
 
SailOar's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 629
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
There ya go

And before everyone else melts down, we're just having a little fun here. Lets face it, no one is going to change their mind on anything. Doesn't really matter. The planet's ecosystem doesn't care what we think.
Happily, I believe you are mistaken. This type of debate between us non-experts on non-scientific forums has been going on for a decade or more. During that time I've seen a marked drop in both the number of intellectually honest skeptics, as well as the number of mindlessly argumentative deniers. This change in numbers is also reflected in national polls in the US done by professional polling agencies. I'm also seeing changes in the rhetoric by Evangelical/Fundamentalist religious leaders, who I think were often instrumental in leading their 'flocks' down misguided paths. It is because of the 'progress' that I've seen in these discussions that has persuaded me not to give up presenting the scientific side of the argument.

As others have said, Mike, you have a remarkable talent for presenting challenging points of view in a very gracious manner. Props to you.
__________________
SailOar is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 18:56   #519
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
As to the suggestion by Sail Oar that the change taking place is at an unprecedented rate which is beyond evolutionary adaptive capacity: I call BS. We are in an interglacial period, and a few thousand years ago there were glaciers covering Manhattan and most of Northern Europe… Glaciation and deglaciations are typically very rapid indeed. Species have adapted.
Forget about glaciations/de-glaciations. They can take quite a while because of the massive amounts of latent heat involved in converting ice to water and vice versa.

Just look at Dansgaard–Oeschger events if you want to see examples of rapid climate change.
__________________
StuM is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:00   #520
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
In neutralization, you stop at balance. Are you telling me your acidification actually knows how to stop itself?
Are you telling us that you believe that ocean neutralisation is going to go as far as a pH 7 and then continue as acidification? Do you have the maths/physics to show that as remotely possible? Or even a model that suggests that it is possible? You've got to be joking!
__________________
StuM is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:17   #521
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Hanse 505
Posts: 62
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

What's Really Warming the World? Climate deniers blame natural factors; NASA data proves otherwise

worth a look.
__________________
SausalitoDave is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:17   #522
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Are you telling us that you believe that ocean neutralisation is going to go as far as a pH 7 and then continue as acidification? Do you have the maths/physics to show that as remotely possible? Or even a model that suggests that it is possible? You've got to be joking!
You're the one falling all over yourself to redefine what's happening to the oceans. "Neutralization" . Like there was something wrong with it before. Maybe you should help the denier PR effort. "Global comforting"? Earth is just giving us a nice warm hug.
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:21   #523
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Happily, I believe you are mistaken. This type of debate between us non-experts on non-scientific forums has been going on for a decade or more. During that time I've seen a marked drop in both the number of intellectually honest skeptics, as well as the number of mindlessly argumentative deniers. This change in numbers is also reflected in national polls in the US done by professional polling agencies.
Strange, perception is everything.

I'm seeing an ever increasing number of former alarmists coming to their senses and realising what a con it all is.

This includes a growing number of scientists and even environmentalist who "become" sceptical at the end of their careers when they no longer have to tow the party line.


And given the relentless propaganda that the US has been subjected to over the last few years, I'm surprised that there are as many doubters as the polls indicate amongst the general public, who pay little attention to anything more than the TV news headlines ,
__________________
StuM is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:25   #524
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,709
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
You're the one falling all over yourself to redefine what's happening to the oceans. "Neutralization" . Like there was something wrong with it before. Maybe you should help the denier PR effort. "Global comforting"? Earth is just giving us a nice warm hug.
I take that as a No, then.

And yes, "neutralisation". It's basic high school chemistry:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...asesrev3.shtml

Neutralisation

When an alkali is added to an acid the pH of the mixture rises. This is because the alkali reacts with the acid to form neutral products. The reverse situation also happens too: when an acid is added to an alkali the pH of the mixture falls. This is because the acid reacts with the alkali to form neutral products.
A reaction in which acidity or alkalinity is removed is called neutralisation.
__________________
StuM is offline  
Old 27-12-2015, 19:26   #525
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Happily, I believe you are mistaken. This type of debate between us non-experts on non-scientific forums has been going on for a decade or more. During that time I've seen a marked drop in both the number of intellectually honest skeptics, as well as the number of mindlessly argumentative deniers. This change in numbers is also reflected in national polls in the US done by professional polling agencies. I'm also seeing changes in the rhetoric by Evangelical/Fundamentalist religious leaders, who I think were often instrumental in leading their 'flocks' down misguided paths. It is because of the 'progress' that I've seen in these discussions that has persuaded me not to give up presenting the scientific side of the argument.

As others have said, Mike, you have a remarkable talent for presenting challenging points of view in a very gracious manner. Props to you.
Now we are 100 percent on the same page. If only those statistics about the deniers of evolution would budge a wee bit faster, eh? Ride 'em dinosaur! Now about that ark...
__________________

__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising and the Coming Storm ~ Recession, Depression, Climate Change, Peak Oil jtbsail Off Topic Forum 162 13-10-2015 13:17
Weather Patterns / Climate Change anjou Off Topic Forum 185 19-01-2010 15:08
Climate Change GordMay Off Topic Forum 445 02-09-2008 08:48
Healthiest coral reefs hardest hit by climate change GordMay Off Topic Forum 33 11-05-2007 03:07



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.