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Old 23-05-2016, 18:48   #5206
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Not that is a bit convoluted. What does military spending have to do with the fact that spending a whole lot of money reducing carbon emissions by 1% is pointless? How are the two connected? So how about this - let's spend less money on defense and also not spend a few trillion accomplishing nothing of value. Or are you arguing that we should do a lot more than the Paris Accords? If so, what in particular?

But I do agree with you - the obstacle to doing "something" is political because politicians don't want to bankrupt their nations on projects they are well aware will have no beneficial impact. Or, like China, whatever they say they have no intention of following through on commitments. So maybe we can invade them and make them reduce carbon. Of course, that would require a military and we got rid of that....
The connection? You are funny Delfin.

You tell me. It is the same connection like the starving children you brought into a climate change debate.

But if you look for a connection: One could argue military spending is as well completely pointless, except one sees the reduction of world population, let's say by half, as a solution.

Military spending was the ruin of the Roman empire, and many other so called world powers in history. MAD - the strategy of Mutual Assured Destruction did not work even the name made clear what it was in the first place. It ruined the USSR and to be honest contrary to common believe the US is not in much better shape either. The US printed money like there is no tomorrow and called it "Quantitative Easing" which gave printing money a nice name with a professional connotation. And everyone was buying into the spin. What do you think would happen, let's say, if the Chinese would drop all the Dollars they have bunkered after the US bought all the stuff they produced for Walmart, Apple and everyone else? I stop here, because going any further is pointless.

However my point is: In the future there will be solutions we do not even know about yet. Therefore money should be spent on science in order to develop technologies to create those solutions.

I argued all along that political solutions like Kyoto or Paris are just whitewash of a crumbling facade. I argued that science and politics do not mix well and if you remember I pointed out that the IPCC is not a scientific but a political organisation. (Just look at the name!) Btw. how did the IPCC become a scientific authority in the first place?

(Again sorry Delfin, this rant is not personal and no offense is intended . It's just one of those days. I really value you input!)
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Old 23-05-2016, 18:59   #5207
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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What exactly are those effects? I haven't noticed any.
That's because Reefy, you spend all your time on CF making jokes and laughing up ways to mock.
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Old 23-05-2016, 19:34   #5208
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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That's because Reefy, you spend all your time on CF making jokes and laughing up ways to mock.
I do look outside of the basement Mum makes me live in once in a while. There's a crack in the door where the wood has split.
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Old 23-05-2016, 19:39   #5209
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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The connection? You are funny Delfin.

You tell me. It is the same connection like the starving children you brought into a climate change debate.

But if you look for a connection: One could argue military spending is as well completely pointless, except one sees the reduction of world population, let's say by half, as a solution.

Military spending was the ruin of the Roman empire, and many other so called world powers in history. MAD - the strategy of Mutual Assured Destruction did not work even the name made clear what it was in the first place. It ruined the USSR and to be honest contrary to common believe the US is not in much better shape either. The US printed money like there is no tomorrow and called it "Quantitative Easing" which gave printing money a nice name with a professional connotation. And everyone was buying into the spin. What do you think would happen, let's say, if the Chinese would drop all the Dollars they have bunkered after the US bought all the stuff they produced for Walmart, Apple and everyone else? I stop here, because going any further is pointless.

However my point is: In the future there will be solutions we do not even know about yet. Therefore money should be spent on science in order to develop technologies to create those solutions.

I argued all along that political solutions like Kyoto or Paris are just whitewash of a crumbling facade. I argued that science and politics do not mix well and if you remember I pointed out that the IPCC is not a scientific but a political organisation. (Just look at the name!) Btw. how did the IPCC become a scientific authority in the first place?

(Again sorry Delfin, this rant is not personal and no offense is intended . It's just one of those days. I really value you input!)
No offense taken, and I know you mean none. Nor do I so I apologize if I come across too fervently, but like you I am frustrated with humanity's failure to solve problems that could be solved. Regarding military spending, Mr. Netanyahu said it best, IMO. He said that if Israel laid down its arms there would be no Israel. If Israel's enemies laid down theirs, there would be peace. I think this statement is true and underscores that as long as evil is afoot in the world, then the ability of good people to fight bad people will be necessary.

And you are quite right. The IPCC is an extension of political organizations, not scientific ones and they have done a great deal to pervert genuine scientific inquiry by pretending what is hardly settled is settled.

You, me and Bjorn Lomborg can agree on one thing and that is that we should be spending a lot more money on developing technology solutions to our need for energy. IMO, we can ignore the warmist scare tactics and concentrate on cleaning up energy production cost efficiently. Oil and natural gas are now remarkably clean fuels as a result of such science and I have no reservations about governments having demanded lower emissions. The good news is that we have centuries of fossil fuels left and will still have centuries to go when we perfect fusion. What I object to is massive spending on things that do not work and produce no benefit - like the Paris Accords. Spain invested billions on "green energy jobs" at a cost of around $1 mm per job. The US spent billions on solar enterprises that couldn't stand on their own in the market. Ethanol production consumes more energy than it produces. Electric cars are arguably dirtier than gas cars (depending on the electricity sources). On what planet does any of that make any sense?

If 1/10th of the sturm und drang that has gone into the AGW edifice was spent solving some of humanity's problems, we could all be proud.
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Old 23-05-2016, 19:49   #5210
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Regarding military spending, Mr. Netanyahu said it best, IMO. He said that if Israel laid down its arms there would be no Israel. If Israel's enemies laid down theirs, there would be peace. I think this statement is true and underscores that as long as evil is afoot in the world, then the ability of good people to fight bad people will be necessary.

If 1/10th of the sturm und drang that has gone into the AGW edifice was spent solving some of humanity's problems, we could all be proud.
Oh my how naive can you be
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:28   #5211
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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If 1/10th of the sturm und drang that has gone into the AGW edifice was spent solving some of humanity's problems, we could all be proud.
Epic BS. "Humanity's problems" existed long before AGW hit the radar... and the same crowd currently lined up against AGW mitigation were also lined up opposing solutions to those problems.

You and I will make it to our graves unscathed by AGW, our children will probably feel some effect, our grandkids will curse us.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:32   #5212
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Epic BS. "Humanity's problems" existed long before AGW hit the radar... and the same crowd currently lined up against AGW mitigation were also lined up opposing solutions to those problems.

You and I will make it to our graves unscathed by AGW, our children will probably feel some effect, our grandkids will curse us.
very true.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:33   #5213
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Oh my how naive can you be
So, having given up the Gaza Strip in the hopes of having peace, then enduring years of rocket attacks from Gaza without flattening the place, you think that Hamas, who is sworn to the destruction of Israel would, if Israel gives up her arms just say, "oh nevermind", we really never meant it and live in peace?

As you said, how naive can you be....

But really, for you, L-E and other knee jerk leftists, I want to assure you that I really didn't mean to push your anti-semitic button. I was merely pointing out that unilateral disarmament is usually a prelude to being conquered by lunatics, so there may be a reason to fund defense while there is no reason to fund the AGW scam.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:36   #5214
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Epic BS. "Humanity's problems" existed long before AGW hit the radar... and the same crowd currently lined up against AGW mitigation were also lined up opposing solutions to those problems.

You and I will make it to our graves unscathed by AGW, our children will probably feel some effect, our grandkids will curse us.
Ummm, probably not so much. Assuming the AGW scam was correct, what you are saying is that your grandkids living in Minnesota would curse you for inflicting on them the winters of San Diego, and the your grandkids in San Diego would curse you for making them live in Tahiti.

More likely, they will curse you for wasting their future by burdening them with debt run up accomplishing absolutely nothing of value at great cost.

And what "solutions" to poverty have skeptics lined up against? Could you provide some specifics? Perhaps by denying the world of the Venezuela model you would likely favor?
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:37   #5215
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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So, having given up the Gaza Strip in the hopes of having peace, then enduring years of rocket attacks from Gaza without flattening the place, you think that Hamas, who is sworn to the destruction of Israel would, if Israel gives up her arms just say, "oh nevermind", we really never meant it and live in peace?

As you said, how naive can you be....

But really, for you, L-E and other knee jerk leftists, I want to assure you that I really didn't mean to push your anti-semitic button. I was merely pointing out that unilateral disarmament is usually a prelude to being conquered by lunatics, so there may be a reason to fund defense while there is no reason to fund the AGW scam.
Before calling me a racist, you might like to consider that my wifes an Aborigional, my family have jewish / spanish history, three of our six children are Ethiopian. We call them Aussieopian

Anti-semitic please.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:37   #5216
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

[QUOTE=Delfin;2127674]

But really, for you, L-E and other knee jerk leftists, I want to assure you that I really didn't mean to push your anti-semitic button. /QUOTE]

So no one else brought race into the matter, so you did. How to go!
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:38   #5217
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Before calling me a racist, you might like to consider that my wifes an Aborigional, my family have jewish / spanish history, three of our six children are Ethiopian. We call them Aussieopian

Anti-semitic please.
He has been looking for an excuse to bring race into the discussion. The is no excuse.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:46   #5218
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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But really, for you, L-E and other knee jerk leftists, I want to assure you that I really didn't mean to push your anti-semitic button. I was merely pointing out that unilateral disarmament is usually a prelude to being conquered by lunatics, so there may be a reason to fund defense while there is no reason to fund the AGW scam.
I couldn't begin to imagine how race would ever be wedged into this, but someone's managed it.

Here's one SOLID reason for funding AGW mitigation: it would make funding another "Operation Iraqi Freedom" that much harder.
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Old 23-05-2016, 20:54   #5219
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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... can agree on one thing and that is that we should be spending a lot more money on developing technology solutions to our need for energy. [...]

What I object to is massive spending on things that do not work and produce no benefit - like the Paris Accords. Spain invested billions on "green energy jobs" at a cost of around $1 mm per job. The US spent billions on solar enterprises that couldn't stand on their own in the market. Ethanol production consumes more energy than it produces. Electric cars are arguably dirtier than gas cars (depending on the electricity sources). ...
Here I disagree. I think I made it clear that I'm not a fan of political solutions but Kyoto or Paris showed clearly that there is a shift in political will to tackle the problem. I might not agree with the solution but I see it as a starting point.

Btw. You can't have it both ways. On the one hand you say you want to support scientific research and development, on the other hand you are against research and development you see as not worthy. The green jobs in Spain or Germany you mentioned, the solar power plants in the US, electric cars or even the wendelstein 7-x stellator are not a waste of money. All of those developments and the research involved in it helps to develop and improve technologies, which are by far not perfect yet but will improve our future.



If one follows your train of thought we all would drive in Ford Types A in black on dirt roads demanding improvement but sticking to the good old blacky.

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Old 23-05-2016, 20:54   #5220
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

[QUOTE=jackdale;2127681]
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post

But really, for you, L-E and other knee jerk leftists, I want to assure you that I really didn't mean to push your anti-semitic button. /QUOTE]

So no one else brought race into the matter, so you did. How to go!
Mr. PH, the question I have for you is what basis would you have for thinking that if Hamas and Hezbollah decided to lay their arms that Israel would not live in peace with them? I'm open to an argument, but generally when leftists say things like that, it is because like many other leftists, the State of Israel gives them hives.

So go for it, buddy, give me an explanation for such a view other than a dislike of Israel, a Jewish State, which is by definition an anti-semitic position to take? Over to you...
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