Cruisers Forum
 


Closed Thread
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-12-2015, 21:33   #346
Registered User
 
jackdale's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,252
Images: 1
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Jack -- interesting post on BC's carbon tax that I will read further. Tks.
This might interest you.

Quote:
since 2007 Exxon Mobil, the world's biggest publicly listed oil company, is proposing a carbon tax, and has already put a shadow price on each tonne of CO2 it emits. And in the lead-up to the climate-change summit that starts in Paris at the end of this month, six European oil majors have advocated carbon-pricing systems.
The CEO of Suncor, an oil sands developer, supports a carbon tax.

The American Enterprise Institute favours a carbon tax.
__________________
CRYA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator, Sail
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 21:41   #347
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
This might interest you.



The CEO of Suncor, an oil sands developer, supports a carbon tax.

The American Enterprise Institute favours a carbon tax.
Transmitterdan addressed the motivations behind energy cos. favoring a carbon tax in a post a few pages back. Fast-moving thread.
Exile is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 21:48   #348
Registered User
 
jackdale's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,252
Images: 1
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Transmitterdan addressed the motivations behind energy cos. favoring a carbon tax in a post a few pages back. Fast-moving thread.
Thanks. Read it. Expect to see carbon pricing in Canada. Two provinces have gone cap-and-trade to which I am opposed. Alberta is increasing carbon pricing, but it is not as revenue neutral as BC's.

Our political system seems to be more functional than yours.
__________________
CRYA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator, Sail
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 22:21   #349
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Thanks. Read it. Expect to see carbon pricing in Canada. Two provinces have gone cap-and-trade to which I am opposed. Alberta is increasing carbon pricing, but it is not as revenue neutral as BC's.

Our political system seems to be more functional than yours.
I don't even have to know much about your political system to safely say that the comment above has got to be the biggest understatement I've heard in quite awhile!
Exile is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 23:32   #350
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
How to make a million in the marine industry? Start with two million.

Listen I'm tired and it seems I'm a bit more caustic than I wanna be. My apologies.

Seriously, please read the Gates article and tell me why a guy like that thinks there's a problem and wants to act. Don't say tax writeoff; there's a million easier ways and funny little tax-free jurisdictions for that. He could pay 95% tax and not change his lifestyle. Why does he see this as important?
And what makes Bill Gates' opinion any more worthwhile than yours or mine? Because he's got more money? How much does he know about atmospheric physics? Has he studied the subject as much as I have?

Classic fallacy of an appeal to authority where the "authority" has no more knowledge than anyone else.
StuM is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 23:42   #351
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
That will be a lesson in conspiracy ideation.
Someone's been reading Lewandowsky's execrable papers.
StuM is offline  
Old 22-12-2015, 23:52   #352
Moderator Emeritus
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
You might think I'm rich because I own an old 47' Bristol, but it's no coincidence that I was quite a bit wealthier before I ever owned it!
Amen brother!



__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 00:05   #353
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
And what makes Bill Gates' opinion any more worthwhile than yours or mine? Because he's got more money? How much does he know about atmospheric physics? Has he studied the subject as much as I have?

Classic fallacy of an appeal to authority where the "authority" has no more knowledge than anyone else.
Not to mention the millionaires & billionaires funding the nonprofits, think tanks, advocacy groups, PR firms, "journalists," and politicians. Kinda like DonorsTrust but with "science." But that's OK because they're in the same club, even though they generally have lifestyles that produce more fossil fuel emissions in a week than "rich guys" with big boats and Dodge trucks emit in a year.

Here's an interesting take on why the skepticism goes way beyond refusing to simply believe the "science." It's about ideology transforming science, actually, and why authoritarian rule in a democracy doesn't work when only half or less of the citizenry are represented:

Paris Climate-Change Conference and Progressive Hypocrisy | National Review Online
Exile is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 00:08   #354
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Amen brother!



All the way from Mallorca! Nice having you here, Weav!
Exile is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 00:16   #355
Moderator Emeritus
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
All the way from Mallorca! Nice having you here, Weav!
Thank you mi amigo! Whatever that means..........

An interesting topic his one. I guess I fall in into the camp that to find the answer, one should follow the money.

There is huge money in climate change.

The Irish in me also gives me another dictum to follow.

First: believe nothing.

Then believe nothing at all.

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 00:24   #356
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Thank you mi amigo! Whatever that means..........

An interesting topic his one. I guess I fall in into the camp that to find the answer, one should follow the money.

There is huge money in climate change.

The Irish in me also gives me another dictum to follow.

First: believe nothing.

Then believe nothing at all.

I only believe in Rocky, my spoiled rotten 'lil bulldog. (no offense intended toward your cat(s), of course)
Exile is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 00:47   #357
Moderator Emeritus
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
I only believe in Rocky, my spoiled rotten 'lil bulldog. (no offense intended toward your cat(s), of course)
My cats believe in themselves. I am here only to serve.
No offence taken.

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 01:25   #358
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
My cats believe in themselves. I am here only to serve.
No offence taken.

I understand what you mean, as I am merely Rocky's human.
Exile is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 03:38   #359
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,139
Images: 241
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Lysenkoism comes to mind
The lesson here?
We need to remember that just because a dictator issues a decree or legislators pass a law, they have not changed reality.
Ignoring science in favour of a preferred outlook on the world can have devastating consequences.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 23-12-2015, 03:40   #360
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
And what makes Bill Gates' opinion any more worthwhile than yours or mine? Because he's got more money? How much does he know about atmospheric physics? Has he studied the subject as much as I have?

Classic fallacy of an appeal to authority where the "authority" has no more knowledge than anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Not to mention the millionaires & billionaires funding the nonprofits, think tanks, advocacy groups, PR firms, "journalists," and politicians. Kinda like DonorsTrust but with "science." But that's OK because they're in the same club, even though they generally have lifestyles that produce more fossil fuel emissions in a week than "rich guys" with big boats and Dodge trucks emit in a year.

Here's an interesting take on why the skepticism goes way beyond refusing to simply believe the "science." It's about ideology transforming science, actually, and why authoritarian rule in a democracy doesn't work when only half or less of the citizenry are represented:

Paris Climate-Change Conference and Progressive Hypocrisy | National Review Online


And people claim I'm blinded by dogma...

How about:
  • He is not dumb or intellectually lazy
  • His ability as an executive - to gather the right information, discern what's important and what's not, and to reach a decision - is above reproach.
  • He has the ability to spend much more time than you or I in studying something, and probably has much better access to sources and people
  • His cred as a capitalist, entrepreneur and innovator is untouchable.
  • He's demonstrably conservative (except for this move, which is apparently exploding your head)


Speaking of classics, let's run through the classic denier dogma and other choice nodules above
  • knee-jerk dismissal of an important data point. It's not classic 'appeal to authority' - he's no authority; he's a person of exceptional ability, reputation and resources. From your side of the political spectrum. Who has been able to make the sort of in-depth study that you or I can only dream of.
  • argle bargle rich guy argle bargle rich guys club
  • the Gore != Ghandhi argument - he's not living in a tent lit only by earwax candles, so he's a hypocrite
  • climate science is corrupt/incompetent
Just saying 'appeal to authority' doesn't cancel the argument, you have to prove that the authority is in fact not credible. Like how the anti-AGW side has yet to prove that climate scientists and the work they've done is not trustworthy.

I don't think I'm the one who's blinded by "religion".

That linked NR article is an even bigger load of crap than the article that kicked off this thread. By a guy who's latest book is
The People Have Spoken (and They Are Wrong): The Case Against Democracy. (-cough-fascist?-cough-)

And this author starts with an inference that is more twisted than the "horse manure" comparison from the OP - that terrorism is more of a threat than AGW. Scaremongering much? Let's be honest: traffic accidents are more of a threat to the average person than terrorism. Drunk driving is more of a threat than terrorism. Domestic abuse is more of a threat than terrorism. Extension ladders are more of a threat than terrorism. Lack of healthcare coverage is(was?) more of a threat than terrorism. Of course terrorism is still a threat, and it grabs headlines. But it's not unreasonable to state that even a small amount of climate change could have broad and serious impact to many, many people.

It goes downhill from there.

He says
...the most useful indicators tell us that humanity’s prospects are on the upswing. Poverty is declining; crops are producing higher yields; and humans are living longer and healthier lives despite the mild warming we’ve experienced.
... there's a bit of progressivism at work in that, no?


then he says:
Progressives are perfectly content to surrender freedoms to fight global warming
Sez what? What freedoms? The freedom to make unrestrained profit without any regards to the mess it creates?

I'll remember how "progressives are stealing my freedom" the next time a rentacop wants to grab my junk at the airport, or wanting full access to my laptop at the border, or surveils my electronic communications without a warrant.
Lake-Effect is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising and the Coming Storm ~ Recession, Depression, Climate Change, Peak Oil jtbsail Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 162 13-10-2015 12:17
Weather Patterns / Climate Change anjou Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 185 19-01-2010 14:08
Climate Change GordMay Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 445 02-09-2008 07:48
Healthiest coral reefs hardest hit by climate change GordMay Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 33 11-05-2007 02:07

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.