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Old 22-12-2015, 21:36   #331
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
...paging Ayn Rand.

Mr Gates on this very topic:
On why the free market won’t develop new forms of energy fast enough:


Well, there’s no fortune to be made. Even if you have a new energy source that costs the same as today’s and emits no CO2, it will be uncertain compared with what’s tried-and-true and already operating at unbelievable scale and has gotten through all the regulatory problems, like “Okay, what do you do with coal ash?” and “How do you guarantee something is safe?” Without a substantial carbon tax, there’s no incentive for innovators or plant buyers to switch.

And for energy as a whole, the incentive to invest is quite limited, because unlike digital products—where you get very rapid adoption and so, within the period that your trade secret stays secret or your patent gives you a 20-year exclusive, you can reap incredible returns—almost everything that’s been invented in energy was invented more than 20 years before it got scaled usage. So if you go back to various energy innovators, actually, they didn’t do that well financially. The rewards to society of these energy advances—not much of that is captured by the individual innovator, because it’s a very conservative market. So the R&D amount in energy is surprisingly low compared with medicine or digital stuff, where both the government spending and the private-sector spending is huge.
I bet that's exactly what Gates told the US Secy of Commerce right before the govt wasted billions of taxpayer dollars "investing" in "energy" firms such as Solyndra.
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:48   #332
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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I bet that's exactly what Gates told the US Secy of Commerce right before the govt wasted billions of taxpayer dollars "investing" in "energy" firms such as Solyndra.
Wasted billions? Reality continues to be a problem for you. It was $535 M loaned to Solyndra.

Do you know why the Solyndra investment was a bad idea? Cos Solyndra lied.

How about the rest of the program?
...In some quarters, [Obama's energy investments] are still synonymous with Solyndra, the California-based solar cell manufacturer that went bankrupt after receiving $535m from the US department of energy.

Yet that reputation is mostly unfair – and not just because the loan program responsible for the Solyndra deal is expected to turn a $5bn profit. The US now leads the world in wind energy production; the price of solar energy has plummeted, and adoption jumped.

The administration’s policies “made a tremendous difference in driving the cost of these technologies down”, said Nathanael Greene, director of the Natural Resources Defense Council’s renewable energy policy program. The challenges now, he said, are not so much technical as logistical.
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:50   #333
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Two rich guys like you slagging a richer guy.

Unworthy of you. Dig in. What's the reason?
Lake thanks but I'm a disabled vet living on just under 500 a month so I'm not rich by any means. But my boat is paid for so I guess I am rich and I burn biodiesel and have a good solar array so my carbon footprint is minimal ( use about 30 gallons fuel a year and about 6 gal propane on cooking per year.
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:53   #334
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Lack thanks but I'm a disabled vet living on just under 500 a month so I'm not rich by any means. But my boat is paid for so I guess I am rich and I burn biodiesel and have a good solar array so my carbon footprint is minimal ( use about 30 gallons fuel a year and about 6 gal propane on cooking per year.
Sorry I meant Exile and 3rd Day. No beef with you.

And thank you for your service. I have family in the Cdn forces.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:02   #335
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Just one little question for everyone that thinks a carbon tax on big businesses like big oil and coal consortiums won't be passed down to the little guy ( us tax payers) ? Who will pay the tax?
A carbon tax is simply a means of putting a cost on excess CO2. Any company that has waste products in a liquid or solid form has to pay to have it properly disposed. Are invisible gases exempt just because we cannot see them in the air?

A carbon tax is collected from fossil-fuel companies upon the first sale at the mine, wellhead or port of entry.

The money collected via this fee would be distributed to the public as a monthly “dividend” or “green check.” Distributing all of the revenue equitably to households will ensure that families can afford the energy they need during the transition to a clean energy future, and it should help win public support for a rising carbon fee.

There is no government revenue and no corporate profit.

There is just such a system in place in British Columbia.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:04   #336
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Sorry I meant Exile and 3rd Day. No beef with you.

And thank you for your service. I have family in the Cdn forces.
You might think I'm rich because I own an old 47' Bristol, but it's no coincidence that I was quite a bit wealthier before I ever owned it!
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:07   #337
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post

Us Apostates know what the MMGW Cultists can't admit...in the Genius of Man and the Free Market.
Advocates of capitalism understand that it cannot account for waste by-products - please note I did not say pollutant.

A home construction company cannot simply dump the excess biodegradable lumber into a ditch.

The fossil fuel industry seems to get a free ride because its waste is odorless and invisible.
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Garret Hardin, a strong advocate of private property, in his landmark essay The Tragedy of the Commons (1968)

Quote:
In a reverse way, the tragedy of the commons reappears in problems of pollution. Here it is not a question of taking something out of the commons, but of putting something in--sewage, or chemical, radioactive, and heat wastes into water; noxious and dangerous fumes into the air, and distracting and unpleasant advertising signs into the line of sight. The calculations of utility are much the same as before. The rational man finds that his share of the cost of the wastes he discharges into the commons is less than the cost of purifying his wastes before releasing them. Since this is true for everyone, we are locked into a system of "fouling our own nest," so long as we behave only as independent, rational, free-enterprisers.

The tragedy of the commons as a food basket is averted by private property, or something formally like it. But the air and waters surrounding us cannot readily be fenced, and so the tragedy of the commons as a cesspool must be prevented by different means, by coercive laws or taxing devices that make it cheaper for the polluter to treat his pollutants than to discharge them untreated. We have not progressed as far with the solution of this problem as we have with the first. Indeed, our particular concept of private property, which deters us from exhausting the positive resources of the earth, favors pollution. The owner of a factory on the bank of a stream--whose property extends to the middle of the stream, often has difficulty seeing why it is not his natural right to muddy the waters flowing past his door. The law, always behind the times, requires elaborate stitching and fitting to adapt it to this newly perceived aspect of the commons.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Milton Friedman, the grand daddy of capitalism, in 1979

Quote:
Phil Donahue: Is there a case for the government to do something about pollution?

Milton Friedman: Yes, there’s a case for the government to do something. There’s always a case for the government to do something about it. Because there’s always a case for the government to some extent when what two people do affects a third party. There’s no case for the government whatsoever to mandate air bags, because air bags protect the people inside the car. That’s my business. If I want to protect myself, I should do it at my expense. But there is a case for the government protecting third parties, protecting people who have not voluntarily agreed to enter. So there’s more of a case, for example, for emissions controls than for airbags. But the question is what’s the best way to do it? And the best way to do it is not to have bureaucrats in Washington write rules and regulations saying a car has to carry this that or the other. The way to do it is to impose a tax on the cost of the pollutants emitted by a car and make an incentive for car manufacturers and for consumers to keep down the amount of pollution.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

From the American Enterprise Institute - Wednesday, April 22, 2015
Quote:
"Momentum is building on both sides of the aisle for action on climate change through a market-based mechanism. A carbon tax could be one such mechanism, be nested within broader fiscal reform, and send a global signal in advance of the United Nations Climate Conference in Paris late this year."
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:09   #338
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A carbon tax is simply a means of putting a cost on excess CO2. Any company that has waste products in a liquid or solid form has to pay to have it properly disposed. Are invisible gases exempt just because we cannot see them in the air?

A carbon tax is collected from fossil-fuel companies upon the first sale at the mine, wellhead or port of entry.

The money collected via this fee would be distributed to the public as a monthly “dividend” or “green check.” Distributing all of the revenue equitably to households will ensure that families can afford the energy they need during the transition to a clean energy future, and it should help win public support for a rising carbon fee.

There is no government revenue and no corporate profit.

There is just such a system in place in British Columbia.
So they give you the money to pay the fee that is charged to the companies and passed directly to you in higher energy cost per kWh.or per gallon /liter don't matter how you explain it the companies pass the fee on to customers as a higher rate for the fuel or electricity or lube oil.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:11   #339
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
You might think I'm rich because I own an old 47' Bristol, but it's no coincidence that I was quite a bit wealthier before I ever owned it!

How to make a million in the marine industry? Start with two million.

Listen I'm tired and it seems I'm a bit more caustic than I wanna be. My apologies.

Seriously, please read the Gates article and tell me why a guy like that thinks there's a problem and wants to act. Don't say tax writeoff; there's a million easier ways and funny little tax-free jurisdictions for that. He could pay 95% tax and not change his lifestyle. Why does he see this as important?
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:13   #340
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
So they give you the money to pay the fee that is charged to the companies and passed directly to you in higher energy cost per kWh.or per gallon /liter don't matter how you explain it the companies pass the fee on to customers as a higher rate for the fuel or electricity or lube oil.
Quote:
British Columbia has had a carbon tax since 2008. It isn’t large or onerous; for example, the tax on gasoline is 6.67 cents per litre, and on higher-carbon diesel it’s 7.67 cents. The tax, also covering coal, natural gas and other fuels, has had a big impact. Between 2008 and 2012, per capita consumption of the fuels subject to the carbon tax fell by more than 17 per cent in BC, while rising by 1.5 per cent in the rest of Canada, according to an analysis by Stewart Elgie of the University of Ottawa. Per capita greenhouse-gas emissions from sources subject to the BC carbon tax fell 10 per cent, while the rest of the country’s per capita emissions from the same sources were down 1.1 per cent. And even as BC’s path of carbon use was diverging from the rest of Canada, its economic performance was not. The best measure of economic growth – per capita gross domestic product – shows almost no difference between BC and the rest of Canada between 2008 and 2011. In fact, BC’s economic growth, even with a carbon tax, slightly outperformed the rest of the country.

What’s more, BC has used the carbon tax to reduce personal and business taxes. For middle-class and upper-middle income people, BC is now the province with the lowest income-tax burden – lower than Alberta.

In other words, BC has delivered big results, without taking radical steps. A tax on carbon nudged millions of British Columbians into making small decisions to figure out how to lower their carbon-tax burden. And all of those small steps have added up. There have been millions of tiny evolutions – not one giant revolution. The entire province didn’t give up cars or capitalism
.

How to fight global warming without destroying the economy? Use a little Econ 101 - The Globe and Mail
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:14   #341
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Dunno what we're gonna do Boaty, except maybe quit taking ourselves so seriously. Love the new avatar photo, btw.
The global warming crowd gets upset because the deniers aren't as upset about the coming Armageddon as they are.

It's going to be 71 degrees F on Christmas Eve here north of Boston! Three cheers for global warming!!!
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:16   #342
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Ah....

For the next class we will review their true agenda....
That will be a lesson in conspiracy ideation.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:17   #343
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A carbon tax is simply a means of putting a cost on excess CO2. Any company that has waste products in a liquid or solid form has to pay to have it properly disposed. Are invisible gases exempt just because we cannot see them in the air?

A carbon tax is collected from fossil-fuel companies upon the first sale at the mine, wellhead or port of entry.

The money collected via this fee would be distributed to the public as a monthly “dividend” or “green check.” Distributing all of the revenue equitably to households will ensure that families can afford the energy they need during the transition to a clean energy future, and it should help win public support for a rising carbon fee.

There is no government revenue and no corporate profit.

There is just such a system in place in British Columbia.
So the tax the energy co. provides as a "cost" to properly dispose of their waste products is used to fund the monthly "dividend" to the consumers, the same consumers who have already paid for their "green checks" by paying higher prices for energy to heat their homes & commute to work. Sounds like a wash for the consumer but a boon to whoever gets to administer the program. Btw, what's the total price of a gallon of gas in British Columbia these days, taxes included?

EDIT: Newhaul beat me to it, and probably said it better. Jack -- interesting post on BC's carbon tax that I will read further. Tks.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:21   #344
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Sorry I meant Exile and 3rd Day. No beef with you.

And thank you for your service. I have family in the Cdn forces.
Lake hope you don't think I'm mad I am not and actually I take the comment I thought was directed at me in a spirit of fun. ( look me up on sail net same handle ). Thank your family for their continued service from another brother in arms. Ht1 USN
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:25   #345
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The global warming crowd gets upset because the deniers aren't as upset about the coming Armageddon as they are.

It's going to be 71 degrees F on Christmas Eve here north of Boston! Three cheers for global warming!!!
They are telling us its going to snow here ( actually a rare occurance here in the Seattle Tacoma area.
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