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Old 14-01-2016, 08:38   #1741
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Originally Posted by Exile:
And no, fossil fuels are not a nonprofit industry. So yes, they do have legal, financial & fiduciary duties to their shareholders, to say nothing of their employees, to turn a profit.


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It's no longer in our best interests to subsidize fossil-fuel production and consumption. The current market glut indicates that supply is not an issue.

Clearly I'm not the only one who needs to be assigned more homework.

Originally Posted by Exile:
And like it or not, since they are in the business of producing ENERGY, they will ultimately be the ones probably bringing us alternative, renewable energies as well, along with new technologies for carbon extraction and the like.


Now who's farting rainbows? Although a few are diversifying.

If you think the major energy cos. are simply going to fold their tents if/when the world transitions to using more renewables, then you are obviously the one "farting rainbows" (whatever that means). And if technology to ultimately develop ways to extract carbon out of the atmosphere becomes viable, then which industry do you think employs some of the most knowledgeable minds when it comes to understanding carbon chemistry, and has the most extensive infrastructure to deploy it?
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Old 14-01-2016, 08:42   #1742
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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I don't think the issue of eliminating subsidies for the fossil fuel industry is necessarily a tree-hugging matter. As only a casual review of the IMF report reveals, it's a highly complex area with often arcane definitions of what various subsidies actually are, and an involved system of economic incentives & disincentives to deal with the many different interests affected by the extraction, production & distribution of fossil fuels. To the extent some of these subsidies are merely a form of corporate welfare (like ethanol is to Iowa farmers), then I agree with L-E that they should be eliminated, and there seems to be growing political consensus for that. But some of the so-called "subsidies" & "tax breaks" people like to complain about are merely deductions for costs, expenses & depreciation applicable to all businesses, with the capital-intensive oil industry perhaps availing themselves more of them due to their business model.
If we want to reduce dependence on fossil-fuels, it's valid to question whether that industry should get the same extent of 'normal' breaks and incentives that other resource industries get. Especially when supply is currently not a problem. If you want to reduce heroin dependence, you don't keep incentivizing poppy farming.

Yes there's currently a very complex relationship between fossil-fuels and the economy in general, and the fact that the US economy improved as the oil price sank is no coincidence. If most economies are critically dependent on cheap fossil-fuels, then it wouldn't make sense right now to mess with that.
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Old 14-01-2016, 08:48   #1743
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Now there's an interesting task for our alarmist friends. How many ski resorts have shut down due to climate change (as opposed to a poor season or two) in the last 50 years?
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s...limate+warming

Will global warming kill off skiing in North America? - Telegraph
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:18   #1744
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
If we want to reduce dependence on fossil-fuels, it's valid to question whether that industry should get the same extent of 'normal' breaks and incentives that other resource industries get. Especially when supply is currently not a problem.

The subsidies, etc. are not just about supply. If nothing else, just read the table of contents of the IMF report jimbunyard linked us to. It might be more realistic to first work on eliminating what are deemed "special" breaks & incentives that are unique to the oil industry. What you call "normal" breaks are often just a way to fairly tax a business on their profits as opposed to also taxing what it actually costs them to make that profit. That's what deductions & depreciation are for.

If you want to reduce heroin dependence, you don't keep incentivizing poppy farming.

Fine for a substance that has only debilitating effects on the population and no upside (except for in a medical setting). Not so fine for an indispensible source of energy that, despite its obvious downsides, has created the vastly improved standard of living the entire world enjoys.

Yes there's currently a very complex relationship between fossil-fuels and the economy in general, and the fact that the US economy improved as the oil price sank is no coincidence. If most economies are critically dependent on cheap fossil-fuels, then it wouldn't make sense right now to mess with that.
Really? I was wondering if anyone actually believed what Obama had to say about this in his state of the union speech.
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:22   #1745
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Best ski season in a long time out in the US Rocky Mtns., Cascades & Calif. Sierras. Maybe not so good for the NE, though.
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:30   #1746
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Interesting. Looks like a nice place to live! Britain does seem to have some rather odd tax laws where foreign corps. are apparently not taxed on profits they earn from doing business in Britain. Sounds like they're trying to remedy that, although the downside may be to deter foreign businesses from locating there generally, with the resulting loss of employment and other sources of tax revenue. But it sounds like that small town in Wales has that covered too!
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:48   #1747
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Best ski season in a long time out in the US Rocky Mtns., Cascades & Calif. Sierras. Maybe not so good for the NE, though.
We shall see if it is a great ski season or not in a few months it was only a couple years ago we were still skiing on snoqualmie on the 4th of July. Hope its another one of those years. The cc people will explain it again as a weather anomoly though .
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Old 14-01-2016, 09:56   #1748
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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The subsidies, etc. are not just about supply. If nothing else, just read the table of contents of the IMF report jimbunyard linked us to. It might be more realistic to first work on eliminating what are deemed "special" breaks & incentives that are unique to the oil industry. What you call "normal" breaks are often just a way to fairly tax a business on their profits as opposed to also taxing what it actually costs them to make that profit. That's what deductions & depreciation are for.
'Normal' businesses benefit from increasing demand, so have a vested interest in encouraging demand. Needing to grow demand puts the fossil-fuel industry at odds with the need to reduce our dependence on their products (or at least stop becoming MORE dependent). Ideas?
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:15   #1749
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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'Normal' businesses benefit from increasing demand, so have a vested interest in encouraging demand. Needing to grow demand puts the fossil-fuel industry at odds with the need to reduce our dependence on their products (or at least stop becoming MORE dependent). Ideas?
You tell us...

What would it take to get YOU and JACK to buy into some sort of carbon reducing energy source? So far, it appears that YOU and JACK don't intend to spend any of your own money, but would rather others spend theirs... while YOU and JACK continue a carbon energy based lifestyle.

I've already made several suggestions: hydro, nuclear, solar and geothermal... one of which I've bought into.

"Talk is cheap."
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:17   #1750
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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'Normal' businesses benefit from increasing demand, so have a vested interest in encouraging demand. Needing to grow demand puts the fossil-fuel industry at odds with the need to reduce our dependence on their products (or at least stop becoming MORE dependent). Ideas?
The oil cos. aren't selling flat-screen tv's. Fossil fuels are a world-wide commodity and a necessity, with demand dictated largely by economic activity. That's why the stock markets have been going through gyrations. These markets try and predict future economic activity and are seeing lower growth in China for the first time, continued stagnant growth in the US & Europe, and declines in some of the developing world. Along with the over-supply thanks to American fracking & Saudi dumping, this has created the low price of oil. It's not the same sort of "addiction" as a heroin addict, despite what you may often read and are told and, unlike other types of businesses, the oil industry can't simply "create" increased demand.
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:26   #1751
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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You tell us...

What would it take to get YOU and JACK to buy into some sort of carbon reducing energy source? So far, it appears that YOU and JACK don't intend to spend any of your own money, but would rather others spend theirs... while YOU and JACK continue a carbon energy based lifestyle.

I've already made several suggestions: hydro, nuclear, solar and geothermal... one of which I've bought into.

"Talk is cheap."
Which reminds me (as fact-checked by snopes.com):

A Tale of Two Houses : snopes.com

Gotta love the irony, and the hypocrisy!
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:38   #1752
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

Some "talk the talk" while others "walk the walk."
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Old 14-01-2016, 10:48   #1753
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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Some "talk the talk" while others "walk the walk."
Or, as I read just the other day...

"When those calling climate change a crisis start acting like it's a crisis then I'll start believing it's a crisis"

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Old 14-01-2016, 10:51   #1754
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

So, aside from weather related bitching and moaning and a whole lot of the usual "could" and "maybe" claims, the basic answer is zip.

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Old 14-01-2016, 10:54   #1755
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Re: Why Climate Change Won't Matter in 20 Years

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The oil cos. aren't selling flat-screen tv's. Fossil fuels are a world-wide commodity and a necessity, with demand dictated largely by economic activity. That's why the stock markets have been going through gyrations. These markets try and predict future economic activity and are seeing lower growth in China for the first time, continued stagnant growth in the US & Europe, and declines in some of the developing world. Along with the over-supply thanks to American fracking & Saudi dumping, this has created the low price of oil. It's not the same sort of "addiction" as a heroin addict, despite what you may often read and are told and, unlike other types of businesses, the oil industry can't simply "create" increased demand.
Unrealistically low price grows demand.
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