Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-01-2012, 16:09   #31
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haaho View Post
That's not an option

I would humble disagree that cat is dificult to build. In my eyes it looks easier than Wharram's.

I start to wonder why so many people do not like Pelican design? I looked at 10-15 diferent catamaran plans, and the conception of this cat looked best for me.
Each to their own
__________________

__________________
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 16:13   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
It's the Gougeon Brothers, not Gaucheon Brothers. And when I went to boat building school we were taught to calculate the cost of the hull as 10% of a finished sail build. This was confirmed when I graduated and started building myself. Most builder cost calculations for the hull are right around there.

Gougeon Brothers, Inc.
Might be correct for out of a plug but i've never been able to get finished hull deck and cabins close to 10%. My last build was 1.3million, hull deck and cabins (finished) including blast and paint was 210k....... Production boats i'd agree but not one off and certainly not by an amatuer with little skills, his cost will be TIME. Cheers
__________________

__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 16:19   #33
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Might be correct for out of a plug but i've never been able to get finished hull deck and cabins close to 10%. My last build was 1.3million, hull deck and cabins (finished) including blast and paint was 210k....... Production boats i'd agree but not one off and certainly not by an amatuer with little skills, his cost will be TIME. Cheers
Agreed, million dollar one-offs are an exception to most rules about boat construction economics. However, this builder will still have to outfit the boat. Unless he builds the rig, sails, engine, and systems himself, or is willing to live without some of the standard amenities, he will have to buy all of these things. A 10% cost of hull for his build should be much closer than a 30%. Especially if he sticks to cheap build methods like ply.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 16:23   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

T'will be interesting to watch....hypothetically of course :-)
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 16:49   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 17
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Hey, I said we have no experience in sailing/boating, not that we are with two left hands

And yes, we intend to build electric, plumbing, inside decoration, everything, by ourhands. And sails too

The plan is to spend around or less than 50 000 euros.
One boat, which we liked a lot, Trismus 37 TRISMUS Voilier de voyage , costs double that.

Remind you to answer the main question
__________________
haaho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 19:41   #36
Do or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
If Minaret goes as low as 10% than I'll go even higher to 35% and still sure that I'll be closer to the figure for a self build wood-epoxy. Willing to bet a beer?

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:02   #37
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
If Minaret goes as low as 10% than I'll go even higher to 35% and still sure that I'll be closer to the figure for a self build wood-epoxy. Willing to bet a beer?

ciao!
Nick.
I'd happily buy you a beer anyway, but sure. Think about it, what does the hull of a ply boat take to build? A couple of dozen sheets of ply, a roll or two of glass, a drum of resin, some fasteners and timbers and you're there. However, an engine is expensive. Quality tanks are expensive. A decent aluminum stick is expensive. Standing rigging is expensive. Turnbuckles are expensive. Sail cloth is expensive. A ballast keel is expensive. Stanchions and lifelines are expensive. Hatches are expensive. Portholes are expensive. Shaft and rudder post are expensive. A good prop is expensive. Good quality plumbing for fuel, waste, and water is expensive. Lighting is expensive. Batteries are expensive. The list goes on and on. For smaller boats in a cheap build material like this, 10% may be too much. All of this stuff adds up quick, and can't really be compromised on without severely compromising the quality of the build. I could definitely build the hull of one of these boats for 10k in materials or less, but the engine alone will cost that much. A single component and we're already at 50%! Unless this guy is one of the $500 a month set and is willing to cruise with no engines or electrics, most of this stuff cannot be gotten around. Especially the keel and rig. That's why Wharram designs are popular with the cheap cruising set, they're pretty much designed to avoid most of these factors. Only engine needed is an outboard, no ballast keel , small rig, etc. I agree he could approach you're figure of 35%, but only by skimping out on things most would consider necessary. He may stitch his own sails, but I doubt he can build an engine or batteries from scratch. Or an aluminum mast and rigging. Or electronics. Some stuff just has to be bought, and it costs way more than the hull, which is mostly labor cost, which he is mitigating by doing it himself. The 10% standard they taught us in school included labor.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:11   #38
Do or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Ah okay, if the keel, rudder etc. isn't part of the hull then may be you're right.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:16   #39
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Ah okay, if the keel, rudder etc. isn't part of the hull then may be you're right.

cheers,
Nick.
Ballast keel and rudder post. These are substantial metal parts which are usually built in a foundry, and hence ordered by the manufacterer instead of produced in house. Of course very large manufacterers save money by producing these parts themselves, but most don't do these things in-house. Therefore these parts are considered outside the purview of the hull. Obviously the keel itself and the rudder are considered part of the hull. While the home builder may cast their own ballast keel, the lead must still be obtained. Lead is not cheap, even if you use the usual home builders method of scrounging tire balancing weights, etc, and melting them down. Rudder post and shaft can't be home made and are expensive. That's why an outboard transom hung rudder with pintles and gudgeons is popular amongst the cheap build set.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 00:38   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 474
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

When you go sailing on mono hulls and a catamaran, pay attention to how much heeling happens. Some people are fine with it, others wouldn't want to put up with it month after month.

And the question should be to buy a used monohull or build a new multihull. I think for a family going on an extended cruise, a multihull would be more enjoyable.
__________________
SunDevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 00:59   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Ballast keel and rudder post. These are substantial metal parts which are usually built in a foundry, and hence ordered by the manufacterer instead of produced in house. Of course very large manufacterers save money by producing these parts themselves, but most don't do these things in-house. Therefore these parts are considered outside the purview of the hull. Obviously the keel itself and the rudder are considered part of the hull. While the home builder may cast their own ballast keel, the lead must still be obtained. Lead is not cheap, even if you use the usual home builders method of scrounging tire balancing weights, etc, and melting them down. Rudder post and shaft can't be home made and are expensive. That's why an outboard transom hung rudder with pintles and gudgeons is popular amongst the cheap build set.
You are much much closer!!!
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 01:05   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Ballast keel and rudder post. These are substantial metal parts which are usually built in a foundry, and hence ordered by the manufacterer instead of produced in house. Of course very large manufacterers save money by producing these parts themselves, but most don't do these things in-house. Therefore these parts are considered outside the purview of the hull. Obviously the keel itself and the rudder are considered part of the hull. While the home builder may cast their own ballast keel, the lead must still be obtained. Lead is not cheap, even if you use the usual home builders method of scrounging tire balancing weights, etc, and melting them down. Rudder post and shaft can't be home made and are expensive. That's why an outboard transom hung rudder with pintles and gudgeons is popular amongst the cheap build set.
Hey we have answered the original post so now we can drift... lol...

I beg to differ i built Scaffie out in the open on an island with nothing made or built on the mainland. I was 26 and trade was boilermaker.
Scaffie is a round bilge mild steel 35 foot sloop that won a circumnavigation award by the Sir Alec Rose Trust . Scaffie was sailed by David Beard.

30 TO 35 % is my bet im up for a carton if you'll drink with me! Cheers my rum calls....
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 03:21   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 17
Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

minaret, you are probably right in general, but I put two particular models here.
One doesn't have an expensive engine but 9hp outboard and does not have keel at all, the other has a lot of build in structures and tanks, and selfmade keel.
About electronics, shure some are expensive, but does not have to be bought at once. How much "stuff" you need is totaly different question.

We grew up under comunism with one channel, B/W TV. Now we've got "the hole package" of "modern shits" , so what...

So which one of these two boats do you prefer?
__________________
haaho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:14   #44
Do or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by haaho
So which one of these two boats do you prefer?
I think you got very wise answers and none of them were for either of these two. You should heed that instead of insisting on a choice between these. That is why I came up with reading these two books first; it will give you a basis that you need to be able to make these decisions.

Right now you might view the boat as a means to "escape" (many of us do that) but afterwards, it is going to be your house and you are going to take it into areas of the world where you might need it for your survival. This creates requirements that you don't see yet.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:41   #45
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Which boat to build (hypotheticaly)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haaho View Post
That's not an option

I would humble disagree that cat is dificult to build. In my eyes it looks easier than Wharram's.

I start to wonder why so many people do not like Pelican design? I looked at 10-15 diferent catamaran plans, and the conception of this cat looked best for me.
Then why ask for an opinion on something you've already decided on... your obviously not daunted by framing and absolute accuracy... unlike the the simple minimum skill Wharram build...
Knock yourself out.. what do we know...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why Not Build a Motor Boat Like a Sailboat ? Lexam Powered Boats 50 19-02-2013 09:50
Would You Buy an Ex-Charter Boat ? Still Hopefull Our Community 34 09-11-2012 03:28
The Boat as Idea jimcarrier General Sailing Forum 73 27-12-2011 10:30
Potential Purchase Options engineer_sailor Monohull Sailboats 9 20-11-2011 17:03
Cairns to Perth Part 1 Bartlettsrise Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 1 11-09-2011 00:38



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.