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Old 22-08-2012, 16:08   #16
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Just answer one simple question...how did Greenland warm enough for Vikings to farm there for 500 years before it got too cold?

I don't think man had a big influence on that particular warming period.

We may be in a present warming trend but IMHO it is somewhat arrogant to attribute mankind as the cause.
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Old 22-08-2012, 16:09   #17
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

I understand a lot of Pacific Islanders are getting worried.
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Old 22-08-2012, 16:20   #18
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

This is pretty eye opening. I'm reminded of Joshua Slocum's encounter with President Kruger of South Africa. (Obligatory sailing tie-in ;-) He had only ever read one book.

With regard to, and in support of GordMay's point above:
I'm not entirely sure how our inability to make a difference to climate change in the past throws any light on our ability to make a difference in the present.

Isn't this like an adult thug saying "None of the people I hit when I was a small child suffered permanent harm"?

Or looking at it another way: would it be "arrogant" for the adult to assume that he was responsible, if one of his victims were to suffer permanent harm? Or would it be a case of facing up to his responsibility, like a grown-up person?

To answer LakeSuperior's other question: actually, I'm not even sure I understand it. He seems to be saying, because there is such a thing as climate change which is not due to humans, then there cannot also be such a thing as climate change which is due to humans.

That does not logically follow.
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Old 22-08-2012, 16:48   #19
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What a joke, where do these clowns come from.

It has proven to be one of the greatest money scams in the history of the world.
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Old 22-08-2012, 17:05   #20
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
To answer LakeSuperior's other question: actually, I'm not even sure I understand it. He seems to be saying, because there is such a thing as climate change which is not due to humans, then there cannot also be such a thing as climate change which is due to humans.

That does not logically follow.
Let me state it another way. Before man was emitting tons of CO2 into the atmosphere the climate warmed signficantly so that the Vikings were able to farm Greenland for about 500 hundred years. The climate then started to cool and farming was no longer viable.

We could say that some sort of natural cycle was taking place because we can agree that man was not changing the atmospheric CO2 levels 1000 years ago. The climate is now warming again so that manure frozen for 1000 years in Greenland is starting to thaw. Could it be that this present warming trend is not man-made but is part of the same cycle or mechanism that allowed the Vikings to flourish on Greenland?

I agree there is a slim possibility that the current warming trend could be man induced. However, since the warming that happened in the past was not caused by man wouldn't it be more logical to assume that the present warming is also not man made? This seems more logical than making up a theory that the data currently doesn't even support very well. That is, the predicted increase in temperature has not been realized in the measured data over the last 10 years.
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Old 22-08-2012, 17:11   #21
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

I suppose that may be so LakeSuperior. But what about the huge and rapid increase in CO2? Perhaps that is just from old, rotting canvas sails (tie in to sailing) or perhaps warming manure in Greenland. And was that really 250,000 years of farming?

Oh, just for your information, there is still farming in Greenland.
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Old 22-08-2012, 17:37   #22
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Surprisingly this is not the first climate change thread around here - go figure.

So in the interest of expediency can we jump directly to page 30 and have some of the armchair climatologsists tell us with some level of specificity what they are doing about it and what specifically they would like me to do about it.

Just so my cards are all on the table, I believe the world evolves, I believe we and every creature have an impact on our surroundings. I believe that Australia used to be connected to Asia. I believe the dinosaurs are dead along with a few other species.

I believe this planet will be here long after we are gone. For us as a single species to think we are "saving" or "destroying" the planet is ludicrous.

<edit> - PS - EarthScience is a great gig if you can get it but they have a vested interest in the news so there is some skepticism built in. Regardless, there are many, many wonderful advances being made in reducing waste and footprint. I am not opposed to being careful at all.
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Old 22-08-2012, 18:11   #23
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

The advocates of anthropogenic climate change lost all credibility as far as I am concerned when they produced the double whammy of the Mann hockey stick followed down the track with Climate Gate. To me this smells as putrid as the tactics of snake oil salesmen.
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Old 22-08-2012, 18:46   #24
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Almost all of the worlds scientists agree that global warming is caused by mans burning of fossil fuels. I welcome your dissent if you are a climatologist yourself.
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Old 22-08-2012, 18:51   #25
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

I wonder at the folks who argue that climate change is a given and we shouldn't worry about it because nothing we do will stop it.

I always figure that keeping a clean house is a good idea, no matter if the house is old or new, and on an earthquake fault or in the hurricane path...

Just makes sense to not dirty your own space...
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Old 22-08-2012, 18:56   #26
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Of course the climate is changing. Just as it has done for as long as there has been a climate on earth. The ice cores they have been pulling out of Antarctica and the Greenland ice shelf contain a record of Co2 levels dating back thousands of years closely following the rise and fall of global temperatures. There is nothing in this record that matches the current and apparently rising Co2 levels of today.
If you factor in the natural climate cycle caused by the Earths" changing orbit around the sun and where we are in that cycle currently plus the increasing Co2 levels we may not be causing climate change but we are certainly helping it along.
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Old 22-08-2012, 19:05   #27
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

and all this while we post on the internet with our computers that of course are powered by .............. ?

aren't we all just a bunch of boating hypocrites!
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Old 22-08-2012, 20:36   #28
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

For those who want to see a discussion on the many issues that climate change deniers throw up, including the Mann hockey stick and the University of East Anglia CRU email issues, I would suggest looking at this site.

They have in many of the subjects a beginner, intermediate and advanced section. I'm not even going to pretend I understand much of the advanced, and perhaps there are scientists here who do, but the beginner and intermediate discussions I think most can follow.

It is a well documented and referenced site. I would invite those who have issues with the science to look at the site. It probably won't change your mind, but it may open up some new thoughts for you.
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Old 22-08-2012, 20:44   #29
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

Putting aside the causes of climate change there is little doubt that change is occurring at a historically high rate. Some one asked what has climate change got to do with sailing and cruising


Inundation of flat coastal land will affect many of the larges cities and dense populations. This will cause a rise in the population of economic refugess, political unrest and attempts at increased regulation of the movement of people (cruiser will get caught up in the changes).


Others here have said that it will open up new anchorages and cruising area (have you ever gone boating a newly built and filled dam cause that what many of the "new areas" will be like). Maybe, but at the cost of many pacific and Caribbean destinations, as well as the loss of most of the existing maritime infrastructure.


As far as i understanding the climate and sailing conditions are some what connected and destabilisation of existing climate with destabilise weather patterns and promote more extreme weather events.


While i believe that these are only a few of the things that will change my plans i believe they serve to illustrate the point.


I can see a storm coming and i am not waiting to find out all the causes of the storm - i am going to reef early.
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Old 22-08-2012, 20:53   #30
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Re: What's Happening to Glacier Ice - Hard, Gritty Evidence

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I understand a lot of Pacific Islanders are getting worried.
Maybe because of the scare mongering.

The ones that are doing something are doing it to collect money from the "west". Naturally it is the "west's" fault and they should pay.
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