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Old 02-10-2010, 09:26   #301
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I was also chastised by a mod a couple of days ago for suggesting that one post was a troll. I will be more careful in the future; I honestly didn't know that calling someone on trolling is considered a violation of the "be nice" rule. I consider clever trolling to spice up a forum; it's fun and I admire it, and calling someone on it for me is just part of the game. Other people have different attitudes, as I found out, so I will be more careful. I would certainly never report a troll to a mod -- why? Trolls perform a valuable function in my opinion. If the troll is clever, then it's fun. If it's lame, then ignoring it is the best approach, in my opinion.

In general of course, civilility is vitally important here as in any human community. I still believe, however, that the best weapon against "cyberbullies" is to simply ignore them. "Sticks and stones may break my bones . . ." They don't bother me at all.
I admire your ability to ignore cyberbullies. Unfortunately, the bullying makes some members uncomfortable while at the same time it angers others. I really believe that the reason CF has experienced such tremendous growth while other forums have withered is because of the "Be nice" rule, which ultimately encourages the lurkers to get into the game.

I was also chastised by a mod for calling a troll a troll. It hadn't occurred to me that while trolling is against the CF rules, so is namecalling. I know from the ensuing conversation off-line that we struggle with how to identify whether a given post is trolling or an authentic inquiry, and we sometimes therefore tend to give the troll the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate lively debate on this forum. But a lively debate can be conducted without rudeness or personal attacks. It's worth noting that we now have 300 posts on a thread that began as an objection to a growing motif of rudeness on CF. Clearly, a significant number of forum members object to what they perceive as a decrease in civility in the tone around here.

I would observe that it only takes a handful of bullies to poison the atmosphere on a forum like this. I'm glad that forum members have spoken up about this, and I continue to encourage the bullies of the world to play somewhere else.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:42   #302
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While we all know that sailors are a pretty independent lot, not given to having others fight their battles for them, it really is much better to use the Report Post icon to bring incidents of trolling, cyberbullying or cyberstalking to the attention of the team of moderators.

When a member posts his observation that another member is committing the above, he / she has undertaken public moderation, something we don't do here. All moderation is conducted privately, one-on-one with the member, and shared with no one else. Unless a member reports his own moderation, no other member will ever know about it.

And since moderation can tick some people off, it's much better if the blowback is directed at the moderators, not another member. That just starts a different fight and we will have to intervene anyway. Let us do the dirty work and, if necessary, take the abuse . . . privately.

Besides, with this Forum running like a Swiss watch, we just don't have enough to do.

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Old 02-10-2010, 09:45   #303
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There was a thread in the last week or so where I felt one of the posters was borderline psychotic. I had many responses in mind, but chose not to reply AT ALL. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick. There's no possibility of a good outcome.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:54   #304
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So lets be up front....
Am I in the ranks of so called 'Cyberbullies'..?
If so out me.... it helps to know...

I don't think I've intentionally bullied anyone... with or without malice... but I also know that one kids horseplay can be anothers nightmare...

We are supposed to be grown-ups who should be able to take a little opposition... or is this gonna turn into a PC correct 'Everyones Right' Forum where people polarise into their little factions...

A bit like the Mono v Cat thing in here...
I swing both ways on that... love both types.. hate some designs of both...

I have some almost fixed ideas through personal experience.. but am also able to see another point of view if put forward intelligently...

When I feel advice is genuinely asked for I give the best I can... maybe not that good to all on here... there's better sailors than me here..
I'm just a seaman... but I'm still alive and never lost a boat so I reckon I may have something to contribute..
But if I see a 'Soap Box'... man I'm in there.... lol... I can't resist it...

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Old 02-10-2010, 09:56   #305
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Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
While we all know that sailors are a pretty independent lot, not given to having others fight their battles for them, it really is much better to use the Report Post icon to bring incidents of trolling, cyberbullying or cyberstalking to the attention of the team of moderators.

When a member posts his observation that another member is committing the above, he / she has undertaken public moderation, something we don't do here. All moderation is conducted privately, one-on-one with the member, and shared with no one else. Unless a member reports his own moderation, no other member will ever know about it.

And since moderation can tick some people off, it's much better if the blowback is directed at the moderators, not another member. That just starts a different fight and we will have to intervene anyway. Let us do the dirty work and, if necessary, take the abuse . . . privately.

Besides, with this Forum running like a Swiss watch, we just don't have enough to do.

TaoJones
Could we talk about trolling a little bit? I'm interested in people's views about it. Am I the only person who thinks it should not be against the rules? Trolling is a practical joke intended to stir up the more dogmatic and/or gullible members, and it seems to me healthy fun. I don't do it myself, but I might if I had more time (!) on my hands.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:59   #306
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
So lets be up front....
Am I in the ranks of so called 'Cyberbullies'..?
If so out me.... it helps to know...

I don't think I've intentionally bullied anyone... with or without malice... but I also know that one kids horseplay can be anothers nightmare...

We are supposed to be grown-ups who should be able to take a little opposition... or is this gonna turn into a PC correct 'Everyones Right' Forum where people polarise into their little factions...

A bit like the Mono v Cat thing in here...
I swing both ways on that... love both types.. hate some designs of both...

I have some almost fixed ideas through personal experience.. but am also able to see another point of view if put forward intelligently...

When I feel advice is genuinely asked for I give the best I can... maybe not that good to all on here... there's better sailors than me here..
I'm just a seaman... but I'm still alive and never lost a boat so I reckon I may have something to contribute..
But if I see a 'Soap Box'... man I'm in there.... lol... I can't resist it...
This thread has made a lot of people question their own style, I see!

I can only speak for myself, Boatman61, but I always enjoy your posts. I have really enjoyed the vigorous arguments you and I have had, and I learned a lot, too. I haven't notice anything remotely like bullying, but then again I tend not to notice that sort of thing. Like you said, "one kids horseplay can be anothers nightmare"
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:01   #307
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As a member who has recently become a moderator, I would say that you would not believe the good work done by this team to keep this forum upbeat. Some of us are a little new, and may not edit as well at the old salts. But what we look for is violence in prose, and to take it out before it offends people. So if you are upset, go to a different forum. If you want to discuss sailing in a calm intelligent manner- we are your baby.
BTW- I consider trolling a passive aggressive exercise, but aggressive all the same.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:08   #308
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Moderators cannot be everywhere all the time which is probably why this forum went to the trouble of programming in a "report post" button.
We can be everywhere just not all at the same time. The report button allows the staff to gather over a reported item and deal with the gray areas of do we need to take some action or just watch it close for a bit. Once reported goes to all the staff as private mail.

When things don't seem right just let us know. We can also keep an eye open to threads headed in a poor direction if we get an early warning. Personally, I find the early warnings very helpful since we don't have a big mess to clean up before we even start.

Once it's reported, you need to let go of the problem. We consider all reports as personal private information. The same goes with the staff discussions and actions that come from the reports. Reporting is the best way to help everyone. Us working behind the scene gets the issue closed privately with less misunderstanding. Regular membership accounts are not set up to do this.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:19   #309
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Could we talk about trolling a little bit? I'm interested in people's views about it. Am I the only person who thinks it should not be against the rules? Trolling is a practical joke intended to stir up the more dogmatic and/or gullible members, and it seems to me healthy fun. I don't do it myself, but I might if I had more time (!) on my hands.
We're probably thinking different things.
There are geeks in this world who are a tad bored and they decide to, for fun, go destroy an organization. Some may design a computer virus. Very popular a few years ago. Some may say "Hey, I found a forum for professional Airline pilots. I wonder if I could join it and make everyone believe I am a pilot and then destroy their forum". And they do this just for kicks. The modern, intellectuals way of having fun?

And thats just one example.

What you are talking about is a polemacist. Somone who argues for the sake of argument. These too can be pretty bad for the happiness of a forum.

I don't think many would be misinterpreting a members gruffness when they read his post if the post has some sort of gem in it. In fact I think a lot of members here are more attuned to imparting the gems than gilding them.

Surely rediculous for the lamers to win over the good people just because some of the good people are writing facts not civilities. Facts, as they see them, anyway
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:25   #310
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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Could we talk about trolling a little bit? I'm interested in people's views about it. Am I the only person who thinks it should not be against the rules? Trolling is a practical joke intended to stir up the more dogmatic and/or gullible members, and it seems to me healthy fun. I don't do it myself, but I might if I had more time (!) on my hands.
My own personal problem with trolling is that so much of it becomes an obsession with type of boat or brand of boat. It's hard not to take this personally if you've just invested more than $300 K in the type of boat being bashed. I was seeing this recently in terms of multihull owners who were beginning to question whether CF was really a place for them. The fact is, most cruisers, real cruisers, don't see this mono/multi debate to be a big thing out in the anchorages. The debate only intensifies here in the world of cybercruising.

I have heard of an instance of someone involved in marine sales who loves to troll during his down time and stir the "stuff" about production boats and multihulls, all of which he feels are stealing potential customers away from the yachts he sells, which he feels are superior. Is this the sort of thing we want to see on CF?

CF provides a service because real cruisers, real liveaboards, experienced navigators, and people with expertise on boat systems are able to serve as a resource to each other. When a troll comes in and distracts us with contrived controversies, we potentially lose valued members who conclude that this is not the forum for persons with their type or brand of boat. Or anchor.

We need to keep it real here. After becoming involved in an anchoring thread, I find it helpful to walk down the dock and observe that far more boats have CQRs on their bows than Rocnas. And most of those plows have spent a lot of time in the mud, doing exactly what they're supposed to do. That's reality. As is the reality that on my dock the guy with the Tartan and the guy with the Swan both think that my Hunter is a beautiful boat. They both love being aboard and drinking my scotch. I get along just fine with the powerboater in the next slip over, and would never dream of calling his old Hatteras a "stinkpot."

That's how the real world works, and the trolls don't seem to like that.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:29   #311
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So lets be up front....
Am I in the ranks of so called 'Cyberbullies'..?
If so out me.... it helps to know...
Here, Phil . . . I'd put it this way (if I may borrow from your signature message):

"A simple test to see if your Mission on Cruisers Forum is over . . . If you're still a member, it isn't."

TaoJones
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:35   #312
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BTW- I consider trolling a passive aggressive exercise, but aggressive all the same.
Agreed.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:45   #313
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Here, Phil . . . I'd put it this way (if I may borrow from your signature message):

"A simple test to see if your Mission on Cruisers Forum is over . . . If you're still a member, it isn't."

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ROTFLMAO...............................
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:17   #314
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We're probably thinking different things.
If you add attempting to write the same language it can make for an infinite amount of misunderstanding. We are an English language forum and you might think it would make things a lot simpler. You throw in the various English speakers all from different cultures and we have a common language to get things hopelessly misunderstood.
It often gets worse when the thread goes out of control with unintended reactions.

Writing with one idea is not the same as reading it and thinking the same. A significant number of problems come up on the forum from one member assuming what the poster was thinking. Some members don't think or read all that well. You add to that those new to forum posting in general and "mistakes" get made but they don't always get seen that way.

We are a more diverse group of people than most members understand. Thousands of people from almost everyplace has the potential to come unglued easily. We all don't understand the same language. We also have about 0.05 % of the members showing up drunk and or seriously impaired at any point in time.

We all need to help each other out to make this place work. If you read a post that pushes your buttons you need to write the response and wait a long time before you post it. I write several a week that I don't post. Sometimes that helps me too.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:24   #315
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We're probably thinking different things.
There are geeks in this world who are a tad bored and they decide to, for fun, go destroy an organization. Some may design a computer virus. Very popular a few years ago. Some may say "Hey, I found a forum for professional Airline pilots. I wonder if I could join it and make everyone believe I am a pilot and then destroy their forum". And they do this just for kicks. The modern, intellectuals way of having fun?

And thats just one example.

What you are talking about is a polemacist. Somone who argues for the sake of argument. These too can be pretty bad for the happiness of a forum.

I don't think many would be misinterpreting a members gruffness when they read his post if the post has some sort of gem in it. In fact I think a lot of members here are more attuned to imparting the gems than gilding them.

Surely rediculous for the lamers to win over the good people just because some of the good people are writing facts not civilities. Facts, as they see them, anyway
Good point. Of course, some trolling is really malicious. But some of it is in good fun.
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