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Old 29-07-2009, 05:47   #106
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and ronald reagan, elvis presley and jimi hendrix are all coming over to my house for a barbecue later this evening.

cheers
If you can get Jim Morrisson to turn up as well, I will be there and I will buy the beer.

This thread is WAAAAY more fun than an anchor debate - or dare I say it - a mono multi debate.

Seriously though - My theory is that falling sea levels are caused by dredging of harbours to allow keel boats in - so any bad things are clearly the fault of half boats.
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Old 29-07-2009, 05:50   #107
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This from the Center for Public Integrity, Sept. 30, 2008:
http://www.foundationsearch.com/News...TION%20INC.pdf


The roots of organized skepticism about global warming date to the late 1980s, when the issue first began to garner regular headlines. The American Petroleum Institute, ExxonMobil, and other energy and automotive companies formed the now defunct industry lobbying group, the Global Climate Coalition, in 1989 to organize contrarian scientists to speak about uncertainty in climate science.

The American Meterological Society's position:

Human responsibility for most of the well-documented increase in global average temperatures over the last half century is well established.
http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2009ge...statement.html
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Old 29-07-2009, 06:15   #108
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Seriously though - My theory is that falling sea levels are caused by dredging of harbours to allow keel boats in - so any bad things are clearly the fault of half boats.
Au contraire, 30,000 respected scientists have signed their name to a list decrying the expansion of marinas to accommodate two hulled boats as being an environmental disaster in the making. So bad things are clearly the result of multi-hulled boats.

And another 30,000 respected scientists have clearly stated that an old style CQR anchor is a better choice since all the toxic galvanizing on it has long since disappeared. So all these new anchors being marketed are the big problem.
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Old 29-07-2009, 06:24   #109
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Apparently, there aren't many global warming deniers in Vanuatu:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/wo...2.5548184.html

... in the past few years the "king tides" that peak in February have been rising higher than ever. Waves have washed over the island's main roads; coconut trees stand partly submerged; and small patches of cropland have been rendered unusable because of encroaching saltwater.

The government and many experts already assume the worst: Sometime in the next 50 years, if rising sea-level predictions prove accurate, the entire 11,800-strong population will have to be evacuated.
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Old 29-07-2009, 06:49   #110
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I dont normally post very much, generally it is of a technical nature, I need to know how to do something with my boat... However, I have found these posts interesting and in some cases informative. In my humble opinion; Billions of humans on this earth are causing or will cause some earth changes, will it be bad? I really dont know. I do know that some of the opinions stated were of a personal attach and I find that very distastful, for whatever it is worth. Fusion, we need Fusion.
Somewhere in all these posts someone stated a big "IF", IF is the fabled kingdom. I truely hope I have made some sense and look forward to the rest of this....

Oh, by the way, we live in Jacksonville Beach and are pretty sure we see Elvis almost on a daily basis driving a pretty red mustang, his license even says Elvis...it shore looks like um
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Old 29-07-2009, 07:07   #111
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... Here's the statement they wish the APS to make ...
And here's the statement APS has made:

Excerpted from the APS* Statement on Climate Change:

“... The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now ...”

Goto ➥ Climate Change

APS Reaffirms Position on Climate Change:

"... Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate. The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring ...
... Online reports erroneously implied an APS policy change ...”

Goto ➥ July 22, 2008 - APS Reaffirms Climate Change Position

* APS: The American Physical Society is the leading professional organization of physicists, representing over 47,000 physicists in academia and industry in the United States and internationally.
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Old 29-07-2009, 07:38   #112
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gord: so al gore has got a b.a. in "government" - right?

according to wikipedia: "pachauri was awarded an m.s. degree in industrial engineering 1972, as well as a phd in industrial engineering and a phd in economics. the thesis titles or the year of award of the two doctoral degrees he has stated he received from north carolina state university are not known in public at present."

now maybe i'm just a bit thick but what b.a. degrees in "guvmint" or "industrial engineering" have got to do with climate science i can't quite figure out
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Old 29-07-2009, 07:45   #113
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Why do global warming deniers insist on making the issue about Al Gore? I think it proves that their position is about politics, not science.
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Old 29-07-2009, 07:53   #114
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We have had ice ages and Canada has been tropical in the past. Earth is just doing its cycle. We are accelerating or changing that cycle perhaps with our polluting of the environment. Earth will adapt and change. Humans, corals, fish may not adapt. We will become extinct and then the earth can continue to flourish without us. Species come and go. Our turn to go will happen, maybe sooner than we wan. Arrogance is to believe we are the ultimate species destined to rule the earth forever. Like too many rats in a confined space, we will turn on each other. How do I convince 1/2 the world's population that they need to stop what they are doing, they are killing us. I guess I have to convince them people are more important than profit. Good luck. Didn't some country just come out with a cheap car and now millions ( billions) more people will be driving rather than cycling.

As for scientists and politicians...they will never agree. I am just glad the hole in the ozone layer from 20 years ago is mended so we don't all die form over exposure to harmful rays from the sun. Remember we only had 30 years or so to live because of the devastating effects from that. Alarmists? Doomsday profits? Scare tactics? Extremists? People are getting tired of all the dire predictions and beginning to doubt them from sensory overload.

I do what little I can to reduce my contributions to the problem. Will it make a global difference, I don't know. Telling people to stop cutting down the rain forest for profit will not change those that are greedy. They (the less affluent) see it as a way to get what we have. Others want our lifestyle. We are a model of greed and success that others emulate. Maybe we need to change our model first and hopefully others will follow. Will removing my engine, using sail and paddle only save the earth. Not when other nations sign accords but do nothing. Lead paint in childrens toys, toxic fillers in food. ooops sorry don't know how that happened...GREED, PROFITS before PEOPLE. Stop buying from nations that don't give a damn. We can't do that it will hurt our political position. Rather tax our people to death and do nothing with the offenders.
Tired of criminals breaking into your house. Don't do anything with the offenders rather sell more barricades to joe average (at a profit) and increase insurance rates (more profits) but nothing done to address the problem (more jails????, more people employed???)

My reality. I like where I live so I won't **** in my backyard....and I won't **** in yours either. I hope you extend the same courtesy.
Pardon the language!
JMO
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Old 29-07-2009, 07:54   #115
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Some Global Warming FACTS

1.) First Officially recorded temperatures done by Hadley Centre's Central England around 1850
2.) Weather balloon's started recording around 1958
3.) Satellite Temps began around 1980 - The only method that can give us fairly accurate GLOBAL weather as many countries don't have the means
4.) Longest CO2 data from Mauna Loa, Hawaii by Charles Keeling 1958
5.) Ice Core Samples give us a look at approximately 600,000 years into the past
6.) 'Global Cooling' was the major 'catastrophe' of the 1970's
7.) Earth was in a cooling trend from 1998 - 2005
8.) Between 1925 and 1945 the US experienced a slightly lesser period of warming; it was not a global event
9.) Satellite images since 1993 have shown a rise in sea levels in some area, reciprocally they have shown a decline in others
10.) Ice core samples show that temperature and CO2 levels have all generally followed each other, i.e. when one rises so does the other and visa versa
11.) The temperature is Greenland is significantly cooler, and has been for the past 8200 years than in most other times in history.
12.) Ice core samples have shown palm trees have been found in Antarctica
13.) Ice core samples show that CO2 levels have been higher
14.) Ice core samples have shown that before EVERY ice age there is a short period of warming; and that we are due for an ice age very soon

I tried to hit some of the items that have not been brought up in this thread.

My Conclusion (I.E. my BELIEF):


We do not have enough empirical data to make any conclusion in any direction. Our recorded history is simply too short.

However we can have theories (and that's all they are); and mine is that the earth has warmed before, and has had high CO2 levels before. So the question is this, did man cause it, this time? Certainly we've had at least a small impact as far as CO2 is concerned.

CDFL is very correct in saying CO2 is not the only concern, or perhaps even a major concern. However all the other 1000's of pollutants certainly are, a big concern, for our general safety and well being. It frustrates me to no end that we are constantly bombarded by "Green" advertisements, and nary a mention of the all the other chemicals and pollutants that are out their.

It makes me sick when I see beer cans, wrappers, and all the other junk in our oceans, waterways, streets, fields, etc that people intentionally throw out their car windows, boats, etc.

Being a Global Warming "Denier" does not make that person any less willing to practice 'green' activities and to try be a good steward of this Earth.

Taxing to fix this is a way of controlling people, plain and simple. If the government has an agenda, they will either tax, or create a tax write off or credit to make citizens comply (to buy a house, turn in an old car, ect). It will work to a certain extent, but only for a short time. Just as in France (which has been brought up in this thread several times) is beginning to be crippled by over taxation and are starting to elect more conservative, capitalist politicians.

Regards,

Will

B.S. in Marine Safety and Environmental Protection
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Old 29-07-2009, 08:00   #116
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As for scientists and politicians...they will never agree. I am just glad the hole in the ozone layer from 20 years ago is mended so we don't all die form over exposure to harmful rays from the sun. Remember we only had 30 years or so to live because of the devastating effects from that. Alarmists? Doomsday profits? Scare tactics? Extremists? People are getting tired of all the dire predictions and beginning to doubt them from sensory overload.
Well, actually, there was an international treaty to ban CFCs that was largely enforced (remember changing refrigerants?) appears to helped:

Ozone Layer May Be on the Mend, New Data Suggest

... so, if anything it proved that with international cooperation, it is possible to affect positive change.

The other possibility, of course, was to have done nothing. We can still try that option.

as regards above:
11.) The temperature is Greenland is significantly cooler, and has been for the past 8200 years than in most other times in history.
12.) Ice core samples have shown palm trees have been found in Antarctica.

be sure to note a little thing called continental drift. Antarctica was once equitorial, hence the palm trees.
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Old 29-07-2009, 08:07   #117
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“The notion of a static, unchanging climate is foreign to the history of the earth or any other planet with a fluid envelope.

The fact that the developed world went into hysterics over changes in global mean temperature anomaly of a few tenths of a degree will astound future generations. Such hysteria simply represents the scientific illiteracy of much of the public, the susceptibility of the public to the substitution of repetition for truth, and the exploitation of these weaknesses by politicians, environmental promoters, and, after 20 years of media drum beating, many others as well.

Climate is always changing. We have had ice ages and warmer periods when alligators were found in Spitzbergen. Ice ages have occurred in a hundred thousand year cycle for the last 700 thousand years, and there have been previous periods that appear to have been warmer than the present despite CO2 levels being lower than they are now. More recently, we have had the medieval warm period and the little ice age. During the latter, alpine glaciers advanced to the chagrin of overrun villages. Since the beginning of the 19th Century these glaciers have been retreating.

Frankly, we don’t fully understand either the advance or the retreat”

Richard S. Lindzen (Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Massachusetts Institute of Technology)

Of course Richard Lindzen doesn’t looks so good when stacked against Al Gore (B.A. in “Guvmint) and Raj “Railways” Pachauri given that he is only a Harvard educated PhD and prior to moving to MIT had only held positions at the University of Washington (1964-1965), Institute for Theoretical Meteorology, University of Oslo (1965-1966), National Center for Atmospheric Research (1966-1967), University of Chicago (1968–1972) and Harvard University (1972–1983). He also briefly held a position of Visiting Lecturer at UCLA in 1967.

Given his meager accomplishments it’s perhaps understandable that he doesn’t yet have a Nobel Prize but he has managed to become a recipient of the American Meteorological Society's Meisinger and Charney Awards, American Geophysical Union's Macelwane Medal, and the Leo Prize from the Wallin Foundation in Goteborg, Sweden.

Rather tediously he’s also member of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), and the Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters, and was named Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences, the American Geophysical Union, and the American Meteorological Society.

He is a corresponding member of the NAS Committee on Human Rights, and a member of the United States National Research Council Board on Atmospheric Sciences and Climate.

He was a consultant to the Global Modeling and Simulation Group at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and a Distinguished Visiting Scientist at California Institute of Technology's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

He is known for pioneering the study of ozone photochemistry and advised several student theses on the subject.

Given all of that I guess we should go with Big Al and "Railways"


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Old 29-07-2009, 08:08   #118
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snueman:

You bring up a good possibility/point, however that leads to an entirely different discussion, i.e. Pangea .
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Old 29-07-2009, 08:13   #119
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no offense intended but global warming and global cooling have been going on for billions of years. the last mini ice age occured after the medieval warm period in the 13th century. to say these were caused by carbon dioxide seems about as silly as blaming it on solar activity or volcanic eruptions. but I doubt there will be much we can do to change the weather and climate patterns on this planet in this solar system. and the last thing we need is for government to become climate experts.
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Old 29-07-2009, 08:18   #120
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no offense intended but global warming and global cooling have been going on for billions of years. the last mini ice age occured after the medieval warm period in the 13th century. to say these were caused by carbon dioxide seems about as silly as blaming it on solar activity or volcanic eruptions. but I doubt there will be much we can do to change the weather and climate patterns on this planet in this solar system. and the last thing we need is for government to become climate experts.
Although you might not want to acknowledge it but most of the real climate experts are in government already. More to the point, this isn't about the naturally recurring climate cycle - it's about how carbon emissions have altered it adversely, all of which is a result of emissions, not naturally occurring events.
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