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Old 28-07-2009, 20:56   #76
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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
mangomuffins--

You're not that far from us--if ronald reagan, elvis presley and jimi hendrix are all coming over to your house for a barbecue later this evening would you mind if I dropped by? I'd like to get Ronnie's autograph.

Frankly guys--since there's so much controversy on this subject, and given that there's no cheese down this particular rat hole anyway, maybe the best thing would be to drop the subject, eh?
Hi Lite,
How much fun could that possibly be?
Confronting peoples' junk science with reality is painfully fun.
I know the limitations of the board, won't call anybody "stupid", however I really do believe it awfully presumptious(sp?) of us as mere mortals to honestly attempt to brainwash ourselves in to the concept that WE CAN CONTROL THE CLIMATE on this planet....it's just so preposterous. Makes us (mental picture here) look like the cartoon drawings where our heads are giant and our bodies insignificant (when in stark reality, it's the other way around).
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:09   #77
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I stopped shopping at West Marine when they effed with the Port Supply Pricing.

They have really lost a lot of the small marine businessmen
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:13   #78
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Originally Posted by Christian Van H View Post
I find you offensive Capt. You simply disgust me. IMHO, Chris
Talk about hipocracy CVH, that joke of yours was more of a quick stab with a rusty knife directed staight at Captmick.
This topic does not sound like something you put much thought in to but more of an emotion or religion to you. How much of your facts come from Comedy Centrals John Stewart Show.
At least Camaraderie has put a little thought in her post unlike your simple one liners.
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:14   #79
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Until very recently (past 25 years or so) man has been largely an ignorant slave to climate - reacting to it, as necessary & able - as best we could.
Gord, we still do and will continue to...& not much more.

Id prefer to ameliorate anthropomorphic climate change, as best we can, to maintain the best lifestyle possible, under those circumstances we can control - and only adapt to those changes we cannot control.
Since China is now the worlds polluter, having stolen that ranking from us, and at the eve of their economic revolution which will exponentially more catastrophic on our world environment, and since they, like we formerly say "F/U" to outside influences seeking "compliance", perhaps You'll join me in attempting to only buy American made goods? Maybe You even grasp now the consequence of "cap & TAX" and will encourage Your senator to vote against it also? Maybe You will even find another place to shop besides West Marine? maybe even accept the fact that we'll not in our lifetimes get a grip on ameliorating anthropomorphic climate change, for IF it exists, world compliance to standards (IF those standards weren't CounterProductive, for the earth IS actually COOLING at this point, per the SCIENCE), is the impossible dream.
Fantasyland is in Orlando, (& Anaheim), not the streets of our town, usa.

Elvs will be appearing at our local Concert in the Parks, tomorrow night. For those able to attend, enjoy his performance, but please. respect his privacy.
Which Park(s)?
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:22   #80
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At least Camaraderie has put a little thought in her post unlike your simple one liners.
I stand corrected. I really thought my routine was more than simple one liners. John Stewart will never have me now. Least I have the consolation of knowing that Antarctica is a G'Dam continent, and having seen first hand that Man can change this environment, I know that we have finally tricked people like Capt. Mick into putting up wind farms. How simple is that?

I'll be here all week...Try the veal!
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:40   #81
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I hear Elvis flips a mean burger...

seriously though... the argument that the global climate has changed before and will change again so we should just not worry about it is silly.. I expect the last dinosaurs were hating the global climate change and if they had been able to do anything about it would have in hindsight...

Don't be a dinosaur yourself!
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:49   #82
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Ugh. As I said earlier, I hate these debates. There is NOTHING that any of us can do, from a DEBATE perspective. Can we be good/better stewards of our own environmment? Of course. History will show us who is right/wrong.

I'm an "environmentalist wacko from the 70's". Seriously, how WRONG I WAS. I was screaming about DDT, and Global Cooling, etc. I was at Rice University getting my PhD. And what an idiot I was! Meanwhile, several million earthlings have been lost to malaria, who could have been saved by DDT. My fault. Or at least a part of it...

Please, can we end this debate here? NO ONE IS GOING TO CHANGE THE MIND OF ANOTHER POSTER HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:53   #83
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Really Bill? Sounds as if you have changed yours over the years. Doesn't sharing opposing points of view allow us to all consider issues in new ways?

Given this is (appropriately) posted in Off Topic, if anyone does not care to engage in political and cultural controversy the answer is perhaps to not close the conversation, but for those who don't care for it to refrain from following it...
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Old 28-07-2009, 21:58   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule View Post
Seems we have 2 trains of thought.

1. Science

2. Beliefs. Beliefs trumping science was made popular during the weak minded previous administration in DC.

Methinks I will go with science, though in some circles facts often take a back seat to "beliefs". It is a real shame that unfounded beliefs can cause the train of science to jump the track these days. Generally these beliefs are tied to $$$$$$$$$$.
You left out #3
3-JUNK Science, "spun" as factual.
We are pompous idiots to attempt to "predict the future", especially in the field of "Climate/Weather" phenomena...it's as acurate as predicting earthquakes.

I give You HURRICANES as an example. We've flown thru them, studied them from space, the ocean surface, their "eyes" the high & low pressure areas around them, we've studied them until the cows come home...we still can't predict LANDFALL less than 48 hrs out and we still get that wrong EVERY TIME at that timeframe.
EG:Hurricane Charley...predicted to make landfall in TAMPA, so sure was everyone that most EVACUATED to higher ground and those that stayed sat in the "dark"/without Electricity as TECO shut down the grid in advance, while the sky remained BLUE and BEAUTIFUL; as of course Charley took an abrupt early left turn and clobbered the HECK OUT OF Port Charlotte & Punta Gorda...some 100+ Miles South. They were caught Completely unprepared...because WEATHER BONK, the WEATHER CHANNEL, WEATHER UNDERGROUND and even NOAA THEMSELVES said...."Tampa". Oops (hundreds of millions in losses on that "oops" btw, folks). Hurricanes are weather, which makes up our CLIMATE. Since we can't predict the CLIMATE for HERE, TODAY (80% chance of rain...not a drop), why should we PRE-SUPPOSE that we can predict the track of a hurricane 48 hours out...or our WORLD Climate 30 YEARS FROM NOW?

It's PURE Guesswork. The weathermen/women are historians. They tell us at 11 what happenned today....that they get right. Tomorrow...well,
that's a crap shoot.
30 years from now?
WTF?
C'mon...
When DID Common Sense become SO STINKING
UNCOMMON?

Folks....
It's Gonna Get Warmer,
AND IT's GONNA Get COLDER...I just covered all bases.
No specifics, just guessing, but there's a 100% chance I'm right.

Legitimate SCIENTISTS of real SCIENCE (marine biology) "Speculate" that there are more unknown species in the depths of our oceans than known, on both the land & sea worldWIDE today...
how much more do we have to learn on Climate & Weather?
I say the same scenario as the depths...
there's more we DON'T Know than do, & it will remain that way for DECADES to come.

Science is based on facts.
JUNK Science is based on SPECULATION.
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:04   #85
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I guess we can't, but we can clean up after ourselves... it makes waiting to find out what is going to happen in 30 years more pleasant.

And please remember that thru the miracle of scientific research last years "Science" becomes this year "Superstition" so even what passes as fact often isn't, in hindsight...

Just ask the shades of all the medical practitioners who thought that Scot was nuts about germs...
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:19   #86
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Ugh. As I said earlier, I hate these debates. There is NOTHING that any of us can do, from a DEBATE perspective. Can we be good/better stewards of our own environmment? Of course. History will show us who is right/wrong.

I'm an "environmentalist wacko from the 70's". Seriously, how WRONG I WAS. I was screaming about DDT, and Global Cooling, etc. I was at Rice University getting my PhD. And what an idiot I was! Meanwhile, several million earthlings have been lost to malaria, who could have been saved by DDT. My fault. Or at least a part of it...

Please, can we end this debate here? NO ONE IS GOING TO CHANGE THE MIND OF ANOTHER POSTER HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great post, Bill.

You are the first of your kind I've heard admit the great loss of human life from the banning of DDT based on what was really junk science (though certainly well-intentioned, for the most part).

On the one hand, you have the AGW or ACC evangelists claiming to be on the side of science while basing their conclusions on the last 30 or 40 years of temperature readings from a 4+ billion year old planet, while castigating the opposition as anti-science. They ignore the record of the models on which they predicate their argument to predict the cooling of the past decade while they hang the denier label on others. Very unscientific and dogmatic for a group supposedly devoted to the science of the matter.

On the other hand, you have a hodge-podge of variously-interested groups and indviduals trying to poke holes in the (significantly flawed) theories of the zealots. Many of this ilk are ill-informed and dogmatic in their own right. Are they right? I dunno.

Who to believe? Personally, I'm a skeptic all the way around. Global warming devotee based on the CO2 models? Explain the divergence between the models and the last 10 years of measurements. GW skeptic? You got some 'splaining to do too. Why did we see the warming we did over the past few decades?

Bottom line for me? Show me a plan that will actually lower atmospheric CO2 without lowering global GDP growth to a degree that hurts the world's poor more than it helps them and I'll give it a thorough look. Otherwise, it's DDT all over again; millions harmed with little to nothing to show for it.
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:20   #87
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In the past, I've meticulously deconstructed and thoroughly debunked denier claims. I didn't expect anyone to admit to changing their mind, but was hoping they'd slink away quietly and think about it. Instead, I'd find them posting the same exact incorrect debunked nonsense a few months later when the subject would arise again.

It became clear that I was dealing with not knowledge, but belief. You cannot debunk belief to a believer.

The very best you can hope for is to educate an undecided lurker who is reading along. Maybe that makes it worth it... maybe not. Up to you.
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:33   #88
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Like most knowledgeable, but not necessarily expert, observers, I believe that some of the most serious negative consequences of near-future climate change are man-made (anthropomorphic anthropogenic - thanks HyLyte), and could be man-changed (reversed).
Im primarily interested in how best to do this, rather than whether it should be attempted.

Reinhold Niebuhrs Serenity Prayer begins:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference...
On this point we agree...
I believe it best implimented on a case by case basis, person by person and house by house. As THOSE OWNERS see fit. That way our decision is Personal, not MANDATED by GOVERNMENT, nobody is ORDERED as to what they can or can't do, people like ALGORE can play "spin the meter", waste as much electricity as they care to, just(exactly as he currently does)PAY Accordingly for same. Don't tell me I CAN'T yet YOU can, that "socialism" thing has never worked, any where tried. Incentives, sure; punishment? nah, won't work. I don't believe we have one iota's control over the outcome of "climate change" & consider self a realist in that stance...HOWEVER, I also enjoy capitalism and love MAKING MONEY, especially when it's "green" money, so I hopped on the band wagon, long, long ago. Attended classes at ETSU where we had a (philosophy no less) Prof. who was living off the grid in the early '80's...fought the power company in court and set precedent MAKING them run the power lines to his self sufficient most impressive designed passive AND Active structure w/tracking arrays, s.&w.facing roofline arrays, wind generators, solar heated pool (heating & cooling the house as well)...it was a heluva design, most impressed. Got hooked...radical little "off gridder" when ever possible since...then along came reality & taking a conservative stance w/multiple business ownership...selling BACK to the grid became not just logical, cost effective. That was 13 yrs ago. Got in to biodiesel in '98 before ANYBODY (but us hippies...me being a rebel fm even that w/a shaved head) knew the drill...been driving the trucks for free ever since...have an F250('97) w/2nd powerstroke (the 1st died fm the "storebought crap") 400k+ & still ticking just fine...smells like Kung Pao Chicken . If 1/100th of the mouthpiece "environmentalists" did what I'm already DOING (& have been for 20+yrs) we wouldn't NEED any more Coal (OR NUKE) Plants. Putting my money where YOUR mouth is has been my policy since introduced in the late '70's...if it works, all about making it work FOR us. Rec'd $20k in subsidies (each year) for last 3 on res.props. & 100k twice for comm.applications installed, just keep adding on w/each of the new checks coming in, last year produced over 10MW of "lectric" all on our lonesome...& again, getting fatter & fatter checks all the time now....so the "Global warmers" keep screaming; me, I just keep grinning...all the way to the bank.
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:39   #89
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With all candour

I will not invest my VERY valuable time dealing with what I can only describe as "Intellectual Masturbation" on this thread.

May I suggest you all read:

The Seriously Inconvenient Truth About Global Warming
By Ian Wishart

Whilst I would not claim to embrace all of what Ian espouses, there is more truth than fiction in what is contained in his well researched book.

Bottom-line: Al Gore lost the election, so he has come up with a "convenient" way to align himself so that he and others can make a really big buck!

Of course there is also the FACTUAL reality that Gore's "Carbon Footprint" is the size of some industries!

As Always and Consistently

William aka 'The PIRATE'
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Old 28-07-2009, 22:48   #90
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Thumbs up Thank GOD, other realists do exist here

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political correctness for economic gain .. that's all it is. the sky is falling. jimi hendrix will not be attending the BBQ.
Not feeling quite so alone any longer.
The "inconvenient truth" is that AlGore is such a big fat liar, Al Franken could have written a whole book just on him. He's now sitting on his moment of greatness. IF he gets "cap&tax"...we will make Bill Gates look like a pauper in 5 years. Imagine yeilding an entire economy for the most prosperous(formerly)country in the world to Your beck & call...
Mind-Boggling...
Meanwhile the sheeple line up to buy their 'carbon credits'

Like a soylent green movie.
Logan's run and Minority Report have nothing on our REALITY today and I see a
"clockwork orange" going on every day and every time waxman opens his piehole and tells us it's "unamerican" to NOT seek self destruction...while we authorize our gov.org to handle our final days just like soylent green w/euthanasia versus, say, a simple hip replacement?

"Where's grama going?"
"Don't worry sweetie she's going to the soylent re-education vacations; we probably won't see her again and she won't hurt anymore when she walks, I promise"

I watch, son of Auschwitz survivor, in shock
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